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>Can the German university system afford to expand and produce more graduates under the current taxpayer-funded "free" model? It does not need to. Germany has

>Can the German university system afford to expand and produce more graduates under the current taxpayer-funded "free" model? It does not need to. Germany has a world-class apprenticeship system. Why would we want to copy the English/American system, when our society is built on different foundations. I remember the times when Germany was laughed at for its big industrial sector and was urged to move into (financial) services like the UK did. One financial crisis later the German way all of a sudden is the way to go. So for gods sake, do not change a running system. I would argue that someone, who has a Meister [0] (confusing, because we have the Master instead of the Diplom now, too) has much better career prospects than someone who has studied "something with media" as we call it here, just because he or she did not know what to do. We lately came up with something new, called Duales Studium, where you work at a company while you are studying at a special school that grants Bachelors, similar to the apprenticeship system. The model is quite popular, but I am not sure if it increases the number of higher education degrees or if their students would have studied at universities of applied science anyway. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_craftsman#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_craftsman#Germany

irremediable 11y ago
Very well said. I think it's stupid for the UK to push more people into taking university degrees. IMO we've already devalued a lot of degrees by doing so. Apprenticeships make far more sense for many things.
liamzebedee 11y ago
> where you work at a company while you are studying at a special school that grants Bachelors For reference, I think the English equivalent is a co-operative degree.
inflagranti 11y ago
Some anecdotal evidence in support of this claim that such craftsman title might give you better prospects than certain university degrees: A friend of mine learned mill-working directly after secondary education in Switzerland an apprentice system very similar to the German one. He had no problem finding a job after this and could even easily move abroad where he now works as an independent contractor. On the other hand, I know quite a few people with university degrees that had a hard time to find a job in their area and definitely would have an even harder time getting a visa abroad in a saturated market. This might of course be rather coincidental, but I know that in general craftsmanship titles like the German Meister or the Swiss Diploma are highly recognised internationally, and it's well known that Germany and Switzerland do a lot of high quality engineering, which I would attribute in a large part to this education system.
protomyth 11y ago
The US went the "college only" route to the point of defunding a lot of vocational programs in high school. This causes some serious problems with infrastructure. We just don't have the people ready. The oil fields in NoDak were recruiting people from Canada who knew how to weld. Because of the shortages, projects in the eastern half of the state had to be delayed. This story repeats itself in the rest of the US.
momo-reina 11y ago
I worked as a laborer in my eary twenties in Scotland and they have an apprenticeship system as well for trades like plumbing, masonry, and joinery (carpentry). 6 months in the classroom and 6 months apprenticed to a master. Software Engineering seems to be moving in this direction but I think this is applicable to almost all fields of study.
- allendoerfer 11y ago
  The German system has multiple tiers, the lowest degree can be reached after 3 years or 2 years in some cases for high-school graduates. To get the degree you have to pass a test. After that you can get some additional degrees and/or pass the test to be a Meister, which is quite costly. In the past you had to have several years of work experience to apply to a Meister exam, but now you can visit schools, too. In some professions you are not allowed to start a business if you do not have the Meister. As a Meister you are now able to train other people doing their apprenticeship and are allowed to study within your field at a university, usually to be an engineer instead of a craftsman. So technically you could get a Phd without having finished school (very unlikely).

irremediable 11y ago

Very well said. I think it's stupid for the UK to push more people into taking university degrees. IMO we've already devalued a lot of degrees by doing so. Apprenticeships make far more sense for many things.

liamzebedee 11y ago

> where you work at a company while you are studying at a special school that grants Bachelors For reference, I think the English equivalent is a co-operative degree.

inflagranti 11y ago

Some anecdotal evidence in support of this claim that such craftsman title might give you better prospects than certain university degrees: A friend of mine learned mill-working directly after secondary education in Switzerland an apprentice system very similar to the German one. He had no problem finding a job after this and could even easily move abroad where he now works as an independent contractor. On the other hand, I know quite a few people with university degrees that had a hard time to find a job in their area and definitely would have an even harder time getting a visa abroad in a saturated market. This might of course be rather coincidental, but I know that in general craftsmanship titles like the German Meister or the Swiss Diploma are highly recognised internationally, and it's well known that Germany and Switzerland do a lot of high quality engineering, which I would attribute in a large part to this education system.

protomyth 11y ago

The US went the "college only" route to the point of defunding a lot of vocational programs in high school. This causes some serious problems with infrastructure. We just don't have the people ready. The oil fields in NoDak were recruiting people from Canada who knew how to weld. Because of the shortages, projects in the eastern half of the state had to be delayed. This story repeats itself in the rest of the US.

momo-reina 11y ago

I worked as a laborer in my eary twenties in Scotland and they have an apprenticeship system as well for trades like plumbing, masonry, and joinery (carpentry). 6 months in the classroom and 6 months apprenticed to a master. Software Engineering seems to be moving in this direction but I think this is applicable to almost all fields of study.

allendoerfer 11y ago
The German system has multiple tiers, the lowest degree can be reached after 3 years or 2 years in some cases for high-school graduates. To get the degree you have to pass a test. After that you can get some additional degrees and/or pass the test to be a Meister, which is quite costly. In the past you had to have several years of work experience to apply to a Meister exam, but now you can visit schools, too. In some professions you are not allowed to start a business if you do not have the Meister. As a Meister you are now able to train other people doing their apprenticeship and are allowed to study within your field at a university, usually to be an engineer instead of a craftsman. So technically you could get a Phd without having finished school (very unlikely).