8 ms·

More young Indians are choosing their own spouses

92 points by jimsojim 11y ago

siscia 11y ago
Gentlemen and Gentlewoman, I think we need a serious discussion about paywall content. Personally, I am very annoyed by paywall content and I would prefer to don't see it on HN. I think that paywall content are a serious treat to the openness of the community.
- ocrammer 11y ago
  My take on this might be too pragmatic for your taste, but I think that as long as the paywall disappears if you enter through Google (as is usually the case), it's not more than a minor inconvenience. I agree that content that isn't openly and globally available should be avoided.
- saurik 11y ago
  So to verify, people should also not link to books, or to new releases of commercial software?
  - dang 11y ago
    Please do link to good books and good software. HN is a little like startup investing in that missing out on good posts is the worst that can happen. Bad posts suck too, but flagging and moderation work.
    - saurik 11y ago
      (To be clear, as it sounds like you might have missed this, I was being sarcastic to make a point that the argument that we should avoid "paywall" content is shortsighted and likely inconsistent even in the minds of the people complaining.)
- xiaoma 11y ago
  I agree and used to flag them for that reason. Dang disagrees though and s/he's the moderator, so I stopped: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9717601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9717601 The recent trend in paywalling is a negative one but it's not easy for any one aggregator (who isn't google) to punish the behavior. Consequently, a lot of a great content is paywalled.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    Dang's disagreement is nonsensical however: >You should flag stories because of content, not provenance. How can I flag a story because of its content when I am unable to view the content? If a story has no content for me, I will likely flag it, sorry.
    - krapp 11y ago
      Many paywalled articles provide a way of getting around the paywall, for SEO purposes. Open it in a private window, or search it on Google, or in the case of Quora articles, add the share link. On some sites the "paywall" is a modal you can just delete in the browser. It's not really that nonsensical - those methods or alternative links will wind up being posted in a thread anyway. And a thread that doesn't provide any way of discussing the content should die on its own, because the comments will be nothing but complaints about the paywall.
      - jsprogrammer 11y ago
        Yeah, I'm not going to spend my time trying to figure out how to exploit a publishers' SEO marketing scheme just so that I can move through the magic referrer to get to the content at a URL. If there is an easy alternative posted and the linkbait sounds compelling enough, I might try it. Otherwise, it might get a flag for 'no content at this link'.
        dang 11y ago
        > Otherwise, it might get a flag for 'no content at this link' Just so it's clear: this is a sure way to lose your flagging privileges on HN
- outofcuriosity 11y ago
  "Open Link in Incognito Window." (Though I agree that paywalled content is a nuisance, albeit with some granularity regarding the necessity of paywalls to continued access to quality reporting.)
- dang 11y ago
  > I think we need a serious discussion about paywall content. No. We've had this discussion ad nauseum and will not keep having it. There will never be a consensus, but the HN question is settled. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=by:dang%20paywall https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=.... We all hate paywalls, but an HN without NYT, WSJ, The Economist, The New Yorker etc. would obviously be so much worse that anyone who doesn't get that doesn't get HN. (Edit: I did not put that very well. The point is that these are sources of high-quality articles and intellectual curiosity is what HN tries to optimize for.) I'm thinking of adding the following to the FAQ to reduce the endless relitigation about paywalls that has been choking so many threads like a weed. Objections? Additions? 1. Paywalled articles are ok if there's a workaround. 2. It's ok to ask for a workaround in the thread and share one. 3. Generic paywall complaints about HN stories are off topic.
  - vonklaus 11y ago
    Is there a way to formalize a request for feature requests? It would be insane to ban paywalled content but I would very much like to see a small tag indicating paywalled content. It is easy to tell that NYT, WSJ etc are paywalled, and some even allow free viewing, however scientific papers and academia seem to have a higher proportion of such sites. Since this community is pretty STEM centic, a lot of papers, journals, and smaller subscription sites are posted here. If users could simply "tag as paywalled" it would be a timesaver and a rather nice feature. Thanks.
  - bane 11y ago
    off-topic, but similar in notion: Can we have a community rule that every 3rd post doesn't end up with a thread where people hyperbolize how terrible/awful/eyebleeding the design and usability of some web page is and we never get to discussing the content? At times these threads almost becomes indistinguishable from crappy satire and often end up dominating the discussion...and quite often the sites are perfectly fine and somebody just doesn't like the font choice or is trying to read a long form article on their watch or something.
- OJFord 11y ago
  Is it only paywalled outside the UK? Would be a bit odd, but I can't think why else I'm not seeing it.
  - clarkm 11y ago
    I'm also in the UK and don't see a paywall. Though I just figured it was because I'm using uBlock.
- seiji 11y ago
  many many moons ago, reddit had a special agreement with NYTimes to un-paywall any links from reddit (that neighborly deal expired a long time ago), but HN could potentially do the same magic with WSJ, NYT, Economist if someone did the dealmaking legwork.
- vellum 11y ago
  If you're using google, type cache: in front of the link. I.e. cache:www.economist.com/link
- ignoramous 11y ago
  If free software and open source software aren't the same thing... how is the content behind a paywall same as being "open"? Open means, IMO, freedom to do whatever you want with the content: One could take screenshots and/or copy paste content (more like CreativeCommons), which isn't even the point you're trying to make?
chronic41 11y ago
Why do we care about this in America?
kumarm 11y ago
Anything that Kills Caste System in India is a welcome change. Education has not killed Caste System. In fact it actually added additional Friction with Collages famously organizing as Caste based groups. Someone asked how this matters to US? You will see people behaving like this on American Streets When this caste mania spreads to US: https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11141248_10153352338753179_4163475777876299380_n.jpg?oh=734a945845c5ed6e822d98bdd5d673ad&oe=56776D68 https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9... That is a picture of Rally conducted by Caste Fanatics in support of a Leaders Son visiting US.
- chronic41 11y ago
  Based on your writing style, you appear to be Indian yourself. I'd like to hear from an American, why this matters to people unrelated to India.
- lern_too_spel 11y ago
  Translated into American, parent is complaining that gays and blacks get preferential treatment by having their own student groups. Then he insinuates that "those people" behave as if they just came from the jungle.
  - rgovind 11y ago
    You are being harsh on the parent. The photo clearly shows the guys doing very unsafe things on American streets. I am actually surprised that police didn't give a ticket. It had made enough news in Indian circles during apri-may 2015 timeframe I don't know why you do not think that photo represents an insinuation and not a truth. And these guys are not under represented minorities like Blacks or Gays. They come from one of the richest and politically well represented castes.
    - lern_too_spel 11y ago
      Translated into American, when good-old-boys (or high caste people) do this at a sportsball game (or wedding) in the US, they're just having a good time. When "those people" do this in what's clearly a parking lot, they should be arrested by the police.
ern 11y ago
I wonder what the effect of this phenomenon will be on India's famously low divorce rate. And if the divorce rate does increase, will it increase for both arranged and non-arranged marriages at the same pace? Can young people make better choices than their parents? Or has the divorce rate been so low because parents had a bigger stake in mediating to save face?
- sridca 11y ago
  Both factors come into play. Arranged marriages, in nearly all aspects, emphasize communal values in place of individual wants and as such marital disharmony is worked around (or pushed under the carpet) for the sake of the group. And individual satisfaction is hardly desired by the group. However as young people increasingly become independent, and (ironically) continue to emulate Western values, they develop little tolerance for such compromise and will readily opt for separation if necessary .. to the point that Indian divorce statistics may well come to resemble that of the US. All the while hardly anyone questions marriage/love itself.
- rayiner 11y ago
  Indians (and Bengalis and Pakistanis) don't get divorced for three major reasons: 1) it's culturally discouraged, and even severe problems get swept under the rug so people can save face; 2) with a workforce participation rate under 30%, most Indian women have little choice but to stay in their marriages; 3) the stigma of divorce makes it very difficult for divorced women to get into other relationships.
  - visakanv 11y ago
    Yes. I've often heard people say things like "Oh, divorce rates are rising, how terrible" – but that's got a certain "silent evidence" problem to it. Divorce rates increasing doesn't NECESSARILY mean marriages are getting worse, it could also mean that people in bad marriages now have more freedom to walk away. It's a lot more complex than what it seems at first glance.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
monopolemagnet 11y ago
The other day I read about "bride burning" [0] Beyond the various non-investigative news articles, does anyone know about this in recent times or it's history? 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_burning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_burning
- fractalb 11y ago
  I heard a lot of them. Killing of bride(even though not necessarily by burning) used to be very common.
cconcepts 11y ago
I recently intervened in a situation where a husband was wildly punching his wife in broad daylight. When I walloped him with my umbrella (yelling at him didn't make him stop), his wife got up from the ground where she was being repeatedly punched, and began attacking ME. Saying things to the effect of "how dare you intervene in our issues" and "don't dare touch my husband". This only reflects a tiny part of the Indian population but, within some circles, Indian women will stick by their husbands sides despite ANYTHING. A saying in Hindi is "Pati dev" which roughly means "your husband is your God". I'm not trying to insinuate anything by sharing this here except that it was an interesting (albeit anecdotal) experience that I had. I have close friends who have had arranged marriages which are thriving respectful relationships.
- qq66 11y ago
  Suspending all internal disputes in the presence of an external foe is a common family/tribal behavior, and not exclusively Indian. Even if she was in the middle of punching me, if you started walloping my wife with an umbrella, my frame of mind would immediately shift from wherever it was to "my wife is being attacked by an umbrella-wielding stranger."
  - cconcepts 11y ago
    You're right, and I wasn't saying it was a strictly Indian behaviour. But I must say that I expected relief from her, not attack. I only hit the dude once - to make him stop.

92 points by jimsojim 11y ago

Gentlemen and Gentlewoman, I think we need a serious discussion about paywall content. Personally, I am very annoyed by paywall content and I would prefer to don't see it on HN. I think that paywall content are a serious treat to the openness of the community.

ocrammer 11y ago
My take on this might be too pragmatic for your taste, but I think that as long as the paywall disappears if you enter through Google (as is usually the case), it's not more than a minor inconvenience. I agree that content that isn't openly and globally available should be avoided.
saurik 11y ago
So to verify, people should also not link to books, or to new releases of commercial software?
- dang 11y ago
  Please do link to good books and good software. HN is a little like startup investing in that missing out on good posts is the worst that can happen. Bad posts suck too, but flagging and moderation work.
  - saurik 11y ago
    (To be clear, as it sounds like you might have missed this, I was being sarcastic to make a point that the argument that we should avoid "paywall" content is shortsighted and likely inconsistent even in the minds of the people complaining.)
xiaoma 11y ago
I agree and used to flag them for that reason. Dang disagrees though and s/he's the moderator, so I stopped: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9717601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9717601 The recent trend in paywalling is a negative one but it's not easy for any one aggregator (who isn't google) to punish the behavior. Consequently, a lot of a great content is paywalled.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Dang's disagreement is nonsensical however: >You should flag stories because of content, not provenance. How can I flag a story because of its content when I am unable to view the content? If a story has no content for me, I will likely flag it, sorry.
  - krapp 11y ago
    Many paywalled articles provide a way of getting around the paywall, for SEO purposes. Open it in a private window, or search it on Google, or in the case of Quora articles, add the share link. On some sites the "paywall" is a modal you can just delete in the browser. It's not really that nonsensical - those methods or alternative links will wind up being posted in a thread anyway. And a thread that doesn't provide any way of discussing the content should die on its own, because the comments will be nothing but complaints about the paywall.
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      Yeah, I'm not going to spend my time trying to figure out how to exploit a publishers' SEO marketing scheme just so that I can move through the magic referrer to get to the content at a URL. If there is an easy alternative posted and the linkbait sounds compelling enough, I might try it. Otherwise, it might get a flag for 'no content at this link'.
      - dang 11y ago
        > Otherwise, it might get a flag for 'no content at this link' Just so it's clear: this is a sure way to lose your flagging privileges on HN
outofcuriosity 11y ago
"Open Link in Incognito Window." (Though I agree that paywalled content is a nuisance, albeit with some granularity regarding the necessity of paywalls to continued access to quality reporting.)
dang 11y ago
> I think we need a serious discussion about paywall content. No. We've had this discussion ad nauseum and will not keep having it. There will never be a consensus, but the HN question is settled. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=by:dang%20paywall https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=.... We all hate paywalls, but an HN without NYT, WSJ, The Economist, The New Yorker etc. would obviously be so much worse that anyone who doesn't get that doesn't get HN. (Edit: I did not put that very well. The point is that these are sources of high-quality articles and intellectual curiosity is what HN tries to optimize for.) I'm thinking of adding the following to the FAQ to reduce the endless relitigation about paywalls that has been choking so many threads like a weed. Objections? Additions? 1. Paywalled articles are ok if there's a workaround. 2. It's ok to ask for a workaround in the thread and share one. 3. Generic paywall complaints about HN stories are off topic.
- vonklaus 11y ago
  Is there a way to formalize a request for feature requests? It would be insane to ban paywalled content but I would very much like to see a small tag indicating paywalled content. It is easy to tell that NYT, WSJ etc are paywalled, and some even allow free viewing, however scientific papers and academia seem to have a higher proportion of such sites. Since this community is pretty STEM centic, a lot of papers, journals, and smaller subscription sites are posted here. If users could simply "tag as paywalled" it would be a timesaver and a rather nice feature. Thanks.
- bane 11y ago
  off-topic, but similar in notion: Can we have a community rule that every 3rd post doesn't end up with a thread where people hyperbolize how terrible/awful/eyebleeding the design and usability of some web page is and we never get to discussing the content? At times these threads almost becomes indistinguishable from crappy satire and often end up dominating the discussion...and quite often the sites are perfectly fine and somebody just doesn't like the font choice or is trying to read a long form article on their watch or something.
OJFord 11y ago
Is it only paywalled outside the UK? Would be a bit odd, but I can't think why else I'm not seeing it.
- clarkm 11y ago
  I'm also in the UK and don't see a paywall. Though I just figured it was because I'm using uBlock.
seiji 11y ago
many many moons ago, reddit had a special agreement with NYTimes to un-paywall any links from reddit (that neighborly deal expired a long time ago), but HN could potentially do the same magic with WSJ, NYT, Economist if someone did the dealmaking legwork.
vellum 11y ago
If you're using google, type cache: in front of the link. I.e. cache:www.economist.com/link
ignoramous 11y ago
If free software and open source software aren't the same thing... how is the content behind a paywall same as being "open"? Open means, IMO, freedom to do whatever you want with the content: One could take screenshots and/or copy paste content (more like CreativeCommons), which isn't even the point you're trying to make?

chronic41 11y ago

Why do we care about this in America?

kumarm 11y ago

Anything that Kills Caste System in India is a welcome change. Education has not killed Caste System. In fact it actually added additional Friction with Collages famously organizing as Caste based groups. Someone asked how this matters to US? You will see people behaving like this on American Streets When this caste mania spreads to US: https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11141248_10153352338753179_4163475777876299380_n.jpg?oh=734a945845c5ed6e822d98bdd5d673ad&oe=56776D68 https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9... That is a picture of Rally conducted by Caste Fanatics in support of a Leaders Son visiting US.

chronic41 11y ago
Based on your writing style, you appear to be Indian yourself. I'd like to hear from an American, why this matters to people unrelated to India.
lern_too_spel 11y ago
Translated into American, parent is complaining that gays and blacks get preferential treatment by having their own student groups. Then he insinuates that "those people" behave as if they just came from the jungle.
- rgovind 11y ago
  You are being harsh on the parent. The photo clearly shows the guys doing very unsafe things on American streets. I am actually surprised that police didn't give a ticket. It had made enough news in Indian circles during apri-may 2015 timeframe I don't know why you do not think that photo represents an insinuation and not a truth. And these guys are not under represented minorities like Blacks or Gays. They come from one of the richest and politically well represented castes.
  - lern_too_spel 11y ago
    Translated into American, when good-old-boys (or high caste people) do this at a sportsball game (or wedding) in the US, they're just having a good time. When "those people" do this in what's clearly a parking lot, they should be arrested by the police.

ern 11y ago

I wonder what the effect of this phenomenon will be on India's famously low divorce rate. And if the divorce rate does increase, will it increase for both arranged and non-arranged marriages at the same pace? Can young people make better choices than their parents? Or has the divorce rate been so low because parents had a bigger stake in mediating to save face?

sridca 11y ago
Both factors come into play. Arranged marriages, in nearly all aspects, emphasize communal values in place of individual wants and as such marital disharmony is worked around (or pushed under the carpet) for the sake of the group. And individual satisfaction is hardly desired by the group. However as young people increasingly become independent, and (ironically) continue to emulate Western values, they develop little tolerance for such compromise and will readily opt for separation if necessary .. to the point that Indian divorce statistics may well come to resemble that of the US. All the while hardly anyone questions marriage/love itself.
rayiner 11y ago
Indians (and Bengalis and Pakistanis) don't get divorced for three major reasons: 1) it's culturally discouraged, and even severe problems get swept under the rug so people can save face; 2) with a workforce participation rate under 30%, most Indian women have little choice but to stay in their marriages; 3) the stigma of divorce makes it very difficult for divorced women to get into other relationships.
- visakanv 11y ago
  Yes. I've often heard people say things like "Oh, divorce rates are rising, how terrible" – but that's got a certain "silent evidence" problem to it. Divorce rates increasing doesn't NECESSARILY mean marriages are getting worse, it could also mean that people in bad marriages now have more freedom to walk away. It's a lot more complex than what it seems at first glance.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

monopolemagnet 11y ago

The other day I read about "bride burning" [0] Beyond the various non-investigative news articles, does anyone know about this in recent times or it's history? 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_burning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_burning

fractalb 11y ago
I heard a lot of them. Killing of bride(even though not necessarily by burning) used to be very common.

cconcepts 11y ago

I recently intervened in a situation where a husband was wildly punching his wife in broad daylight. When I walloped him with my umbrella (yelling at him didn't make him stop), his wife got up from the ground where she was being repeatedly punched, and began attacking ME. Saying things to the effect of "how dare you intervene in our issues" and "don't dare touch my husband". This only reflects a tiny part of the Indian population but, within some circles, Indian women will stick by their husbands sides despite ANYTHING. A saying in Hindi is "Pati dev" which roughly means "your husband is your God". I'm not trying to insinuate anything by sharing this here except that it was an interesting (albeit anecdotal) experience that I had. I have close friends who have had arranged marriages which are thriving respectful relationships.

qq66 11y ago
Suspending all internal disputes in the presence of an external foe is a common family/tribal behavior, and not exclusively Indian. Even if she was in the middle of punching me, if you started walloping my wife with an umbrella, my frame of mind would immediately shift from wherever it was to "my wife is being attacked by an umbrella-wielding stranger."
- cconcepts 11y ago
  You're right, and I wasn't saying it was a strictly Indian behaviour. But I must say that I expected relief from her, not attack. I only hit the dude once - to make him stop.