5 ms·

I've heard of a similar story, but in a different context. One of the asian airlines (I don't remember whether it was Taiwan, South Korean, etc.) had problems a

by malkia 11y ago

I've heard of a similar story, but in a different context. One of the asian airlines (I don't remember whether it was Taiwan, South Korean, etc.) had problems and lots of crashes. Turns out, people were not accustomed of questioning their bosses, and if this boss was your other co-pilot you would've never even try to correct them. I can't find the article, but it went something like "a western professor" goes to the troubled company and fixes the problem "overnight" by simply retraining the employees that they should be able to judge their superiours. I'm sorry for missing the critical part here - the actual article, but such cultural traits can definitely surprise people from other countries (like it did me with this one).

chatmasta 11y ago
You're thinking of the story from a Malcolm Gladwell book, either Blink or Outliers, I don't remember which. It analyzed the countries with the most airline accidents. South Korea followed by some South American countries was the worst, for the cultural customs of deference that you describe.
brianpgordon 11y ago
Something similar happened on Tenerife in the 70s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster It led to widespread reform encouraging aircrew to speak up if something is wrong.
znt 11y ago
It's in the book Outliers, by Malcolm Gladwell. More info: http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2008/12/04/malcolm-gladwell-on-culture-cockpit-communication-and-plane-crashes/ http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2008/12/04/malcolm-gladwell-...
- malkia 11y ago
  Thank you! Yes, I believe this was the original article, but I've never bothered to read the book. Maybe I should! Edit: From the last comment found this article - which goes a bit against Malcolm Gladwell's findings - interesting read indeed - http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-and-airplane.html http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-a...
  - jasonwatkinspdx 11y ago
    Thank you for posting this. I wish more people were aware that Gladwell needs to be read with skepticism.
  - studentrob 11y ago
    Gladwell is definitely hand-wavy. I think this article's most compelling point is that Gladwell apparently did not ask a person of Korean culture to interpret the copilot's speech. In particular, one wonders, were the copilot's warning of adverse weather put lightly? Or did Gladwell misinterpret this man's usage of English language + Korean culture which, while seemingly more polite, may have different signals for urgency? I work in Taiwan and disagreeing with the boss, while unpopular everywhere, is certainly less tolerated here than my experience in the west (east coast US). So Gladwell's story is compelling and built on a known difference in cultures. Yet, as usual, he is missing some facts to make his case. The real question is, how is the airline performing now after the culture change brought in by the "western professor" as noted in the above comment by malkia? Are they still operating with his suggestions and have they been operating more smoothly? How do employees there feel about the change?
    - shard 11y ago
      There's exaggeration on both Gladwell and Ask A Korean's side. I have been living and working in Korean for the past 5 years, and have been married to my Korean wife for 6 years. Based on the transcript that Ask A Korea posted, it's very clear that that first officer is acting deferentially to the pilot. Specifically, the first officer uses polite speech with the pilot, and the pilot uses familiar speech with the first officer. In my company, neither my manager nor my manager's manager uses familiar speech with me, I'd have to go up 3 levels for that to start happening. Also, when I described what Gladwell mentioned in his book about hierarchy to my wife, she didn't think it was exaggerated. There's likely a large grain of truth to Gladwell's representation of what happened. Also, Ask A Korean is usually fairly nationalistic in his posts, which is a common trait amongst Koreans that I have interacted with.
sitharus 11y ago
Korean Air is the commonly cited case, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509 is the crash the recommendations came out of.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ptc 11y ago
Definitely a cultural thing, definitely not perverse incentives at all. See: http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-and-airplane.html http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-...
- gech 11y ago
  1. The analogy in the link is very poor. 2. Cultural differences are real. Offense is no refutation.
facetube 11y ago
CRM – crew/cockpit resource management. This was (and is) a big deal in aviation across the board.
maaku 11y ago
IIRC the solution was to speak English. The reason being that speaking English (when that is not your native tongue) put the cockpit crew in professional mode, where it was okay to question superiors. It's a cute mental trick if you ask me.

by malkia 11y ago

chatmasta 11y ago

You're thinking of the story from a Malcolm Gladwell book, either Blink or Outliers, I don't remember which. It analyzed the countries with the most airline accidents. South Korea followed by some South American countries was the worst, for the cultural customs of deference that you describe.

brianpgordon 11y ago

Something similar happened on Tenerife in the 70s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster It led to widespread reform encouraging aircrew to speak up if something is wrong.

znt 11y ago

It's in the book Outliers, by Malcolm Gladwell. More info: http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2008/12/04/malcolm-gladwell-on-culture-cockpit-communication-and-plane-crashes/ http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2008/12/04/malcolm-gladwell-...

malkia 11y ago
Thank you! Yes, I believe this was the original article, but I've never bothered to read the book. Maybe I should! Edit: From the last comment found this article - which goes a bit against Malcolm Gladwell's findings - interesting read indeed - http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-and-airplane.html http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-a...
- jasonwatkinspdx 11y ago
  Thank you for posting this. I wish more people were aware that Gladwell needs to be read with skepticism.
- studentrob 11y ago
  Gladwell is definitely hand-wavy. I think this article's most compelling point is that Gladwell apparently did not ask a person of Korean culture to interpret the copilot's speech. In particular, one wonders, were the copilot's warning of adverse weather put lightly? Or did Gladwell misinterpret this man's usage of English language + Korean culture which, while seemingly more polite, may have different signals for urgency? I work in Taiwan and disagreeing with the boss, while unpopular everywhere, is certainly less tolerated here than my experience in the west (east coast US). So Gladwell's story is compelling and built on a known difference in cultures. Yet, as usual, he is missing some facts to make his case. The real question is, how is the airline performing now after the culture change brought in by the "western professor" as noted in the above comment by malkia? Are they still operating with his suggestions and have they been operating more smoothly? How do employees there feel about the change?
  - shard 11y ago
    There's exaggeration on both Gladwell and Ask A Korean's side. I have been living and working in Korean for the past 5 years, and have been married to my Korean wife for 6 years. Based on the transcript that Ask A Korea posted, it's very clear that that first officer is acting deferentially to the pilot. Specifically, the first officer uses polite speech with the pilot, and the pilot uses familiar speech with the first officer. In my company, neither my manager nor my manager's manager uses familiar speech with me, I'd have to go up 3 levels for that to start happening. Also, when I described what Gladwell mentioned in his book about hierarchy to my wife, she didn't think it was exaggerated. There's likely a large grain of truth to Gladwell's representation of what happened. Also, Ask A Korean is usually fairly nationalistic in his posts, which is a common trait amongst Koreans that I have interacted with.

sitharus 11y ago

Korean Air is the commonly cited case, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509 is the crash the recommendations came out of.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ptc 11y ago

Definitely a cultural thing, definitely not perverse incentives at all. See: http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-and-airplane.html http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-...

gech 11y ago
1. The analogy in the link is very poor. 2. Cultural differences are real. Offense is no refutation.

facetube 11y ago

CRM – crew/cockpit resource management. This was (and is) a big deal in aviation across the board.

maaku 11y ago

IIRC the solution was to speak English. The reason being that speaking English (when that is not your native tongue) put the cockpit crew in professional mode, where it was okay to question superiors. It's a cute mental trick if you ask me.