4 ms·

On a similar topic - AA actually isn't that effective: http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoholics_anonymous_theres_a_better_way_to_treat_a

On a similar topic - AA actually isn't that effective: http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoholics_anonymous_theres_a_better_way_to_treat_addiction/ http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoho... I haven't read the book the above article is covering but it seems Dodes argues psychotherapy is a better alternative as 'addiction' is usually just a manifestation of self-destructive/self medication behavior ultimately due to untreated psychological issues. In this OP's case this is looks like it was depression - though it's unclear if she is seeking treatment outside of AA.

speeder 11y ago
I clearly have some kind of vice related to caffeine... In the hardest periods of my life I managed to guzzle 6 liters of coca-cola every day, plus eating lots of chocolate, and drinking lots of coffee and tea, of course this also ruined my overall health. I recently managed to "get clean", but I also stopped working, then I gave up, decided to buy 1 liter of red-bull style energy drink (not redbull itself because I can't afford it), drink it all in one go... then I could work, and I felt MUCH better... but I am also drinking lots of coca-cola and eating lots of chocolate again. I am seeing a psychiatrist, and seemly I have ADHD, and caffeine (and other stimulants) are a common way to self-medicate, and many ADHD sufferers, specially those not on legal meds, end having some strong vices (not only stopping at caffeine... cocaine, meth, and other strongly stimulant drugs abuse is also common). I started taking Ritalin (Adderall is illegal here) this week, for now only half a pill per day, because my psychiatrist is inexperienced and probably wants to be safe, let's see if with it (and an increased dosage later) I will be able to stop abusing caffeine, my kidneys (that had stones) and my liver (that is covered in fat to the point of failing to work properly) will thank me. (I am also going to a psychologist...)
- port6667 11y ago
  A liter of redbull subsitute? You sound like an addict just since you're talking quantities of caffeine. I hope you get past this. it's especially difficult because a lot of people don't realize caffene is a drug. Like watching a couple who drink three bottles of wine a day talk down on someone for drinking a liter of spirits as an alcoholic. They're one and the same.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    > You sound like an addict just since you're talking quantities of caffeine. I might have misunderstood what you were trying to say. If I did, I apologise in advance: Because I get a day-long headache whenever I don't drink a caffeinated beverage for a day or so, I know that I'm a caffeine addict. Speaking about volumes of ingestible substances with somewhat-known properties to provide a general idea of how much of a thing one is ingesting doesn't mean that one is an addict; it means that one is interested in attempting to convey information somewhat precisely. If you don't specify things in known quantities, you're left with vague and imprecise descriptors like "some", "not much", and "a lot".
- brador 11y ago
  How about flipping it? You need the ADHD to function maximally in your life/career, so you're unconsciously self medicating to induce it through caffeine?
  - speeder 11y ago
    What you said makes no sense. I am struggling to barely work, I keep getting repeteadly fired even when my performance is good (because my behaviour is too strange in the office), I lost a girlfriend due to ADHD (I have to constantly fidget or move, this girlfriend tought I was anxious and didn't wanted to pay attention to her when I was fidgeting when she was talking to me). Also caffeine don't induce ADHD (the medical condition).
    - brador 11y ago
      Caffeine doesn't induce ADHD in the general population. Individual cases are possible, or more commonly, ADHD type behaviours caused by external stimuli. Actual genetic ADHD is extremely rare and severely debilitating when it does occur.
      - speeder 11y ago
        If know this, why you wrote your post as if it was possible to cause ADHD with caffeine? And that somehow I want to have this horrible condition?
        brador 11y ago
        It is possible to cause ADHD symptoms with caffeine. And I didn't say you want to have any condition. I am implying you do not understand the possible causes of it and have taken the easy option to bandaid.
- RankingMember 11y ago
  Stimulants are my vice, too, and for the same reason (took me awhile to realize the reason in my case too). Unsolicited advice: I recommend taking days off your stimulant meds where feasible (e.g. weekends), as tolerance can build quickly and you can end up feeling like you need both your prescribed medication and whatever you were using to self-medicate prior to being diagnosed in order to feel "right" and able to focus. That, and my experience has been that, when I'm taking my meds regularly, I feel as dumb/unable to focus when they wear off as I feel calmed down/finally able to concentrate when they're in effect.
- bjwbell 11y ago
  This is just a suggestion but have you tried running? I'm also a caffeine /addict/ and running is my substitute of choice. Exercise is a huge stimulant (endorphins)
  - speeder 11y ago
    I also have thyroid disease, one of the symptoms is that bones and muscles are weaker, and that losing lean mass is very easy, I tried running before, but it weakens me (literally, I lose muscle), also it hurts a lot (I feel a burning sensation in my leg bones when I run long distances, or when I run several days in a row). The only exercises I do that actually help my health is weight lifting with low reps (with high reps I also start to lose muscle).
- dmgbrn 11y ago
  Just a suggestion, but if you ended up with a caffeine problem, you're very likely to end up with a Ritalin problem. I don't know exactly what the laws are like where you live, but running out of Ritalin is a much harder problem to solve than running out of coffee.
coleifer 11y ago
Have you ever been to an AA meeting or struggled with addiction? If not then I wouldn't make comments like this.
- seizethecheese 11y ago
  Why not? HN discusses all sorts of treatments all the time that none of us have tried. Making Alcoholics Anonymous unimpeachable smacks of religiousity.
  - billjings 11y ago
    The point is that reading an article on Salon does not make anyone an authority.
nugga 11y ago
Interestingly, one of the founders of AA thought that LSD could be a tremendous help for curing alcoholism: Wilson hoped LSD would help those addicted to alcohol. He realized that A.A. simply did not work for every motivated alcoholic. According to Wilson, “It is a generally acknowledged fact in spiritual development that ego reduction makes the influx of God’s grace possible. If, therefore, under LSD we can have a temporary reduction, so that we can better see what we are and where we are going–well, that might be of some help.” http://mywordlikefire.com/2012/10/28/lsd-researcher-and-a-a-co-founder-bill-wilson/ http://mywordlikefire.com/2012/10/28/lsd-researcher-and-a-a-... http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alcoholics-theory http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alco... http://www.maps.org/research-archive/w3pb/2005/2005_Dyck_22866_1.pdf http://www.maps.org/research-archive/w3pb/2005/2005_Dyck_228... http://www.bbc.com/news/health-17297714 http://www.bbc.com/news/health-17297714

speeder 11y ago

I clearly have some kind of vice related to caffeine... In the hardest periods of my life I managed to guzzle 6 liters of coca-cola every day, plus eating lots of chocolate, and drinking lots of coffee and tea, of course this also ruined my overall health. I recently managed to "get clean", but I also stopped working, then I gave up, decided to buy 1 liter of red-bull style energy drink (not redbull itself because I can't afford it), drink it all in one go... then I could work, and I felt MUCH better... but I am also drinking lots of coca-cola and eating lots of chocolate again. I am seeing a psychiatrist, and seemly I have ADHD, and caffeine (and other stimulants) are a common way to self-medicate, and many ADHD sufferers, specially those not on legal meds, end having some strong vices (not only stopping at caffeine... cocaine, meth, and other strongly stimulant drugs abuse is also common). I started taking Ritalin (Adderall is illegal here) this week, for now only half a pill per day, because my psychiatrist is inexperienced and probably wants to be safe, let's see if with it (and an increased dosage later) I will be able to stop abusing caffeine, my kidneys (that had stones) and my liver (that is covered in fat to the point of failing to work properly) will thank me. (I am also going to a psychologist...)

port6667 11y ago
A liter of redbull subsitute? You sound like an addict just since you're talking quantities of caffeine. I hope you get past this. it's especially difficult because a lot of people don't realize caffene is a drug. Like watching a couple who drink three bottles of wine a day talk down on someone for drinking a liter of spirits as an alcoholic. They're one and the same.
- simoncion 11y ago
  > You sound like an addict just since you're talking quantities of caffeine. I might have misunderstood what you were trying to say. If I did, I apologise in advance: Because I get a day-long headache whenever I don't drink a caffeinated beverage for a day or so, I know that I'm a caffeine addict. Speaking about volumes of ingestible substances with somewhat-known properties to provide a general idea of how much of a thing one is ingesting doesn't mean that one is an addict; it means that one is interested in attempting to convey information somewhat precisely. If you don't specify things in known quantities, you're left with vague and imprecise descriptors like "some", "not much", and "a lot".
brador 11y ago
How about flipping it? You need the ADHD to function maximally in your life/career, so you're unconsciously self medicating to induce it through caffeine?
- speeder 11y ago
  What you said makes no sense. I am struggling to barely work, I keep getting repeteadly fired even when my performance is good (because my behaviour is too strange in the office), I lost a girlfriend due to ADHD (I have to constantly fidget or move, this girlfriend tought I was anxious and didn't wanted to pay attention to her when I was fidgeting when she was talking to me). Also caffeine don't induce ADHD (the medical condition).
  - brador 11y ago
    Caffeine doesn't induce ADHD in the general population. Individual cases are possible, or more commonly, ADHD type behaviours caused by external stimuli. Actual genetic ADHD is extremely rare and severely debilitating when it does occur.
    - speeder 11y ago
      If know this, why you wrote your post as if it was possible to cause ADHD with caffeine? And that somehow I want to have this horrible condition?
      - brador 11y ago
        It is possible to cause ADHD symptoms with caffeine. And I didn't say you want to have any condition. I am implying you do not understand the possible causes of it and have taken the easy option to bandaid.
RankingMember 11y ago
Stimulants are my vice, too, and for the same reason (took me awhile to realize the reason in my case too). Unsolicited advice: I recommend taking days off your stimulant meds where feasible (e.g. weekends), as tolerance can build quickly and you can end up feeling like you need both your prescribed medication and whatever you were using to self-medicate prior to being diagnosed in order to feel "right" and able to focus. That, and my experience has been that, when I'm taking my meds regularly, I feel as dumb/unable to focus when they wear off as I feel calmed down/finally able to concentrate when they're in effect.
bjwbell 11y ago
This is just a suggestion but have you tried running? I'm also a caffeine /addict/ and running is my substitute of choice. Exercise is a huge stimulant (endorphins)
- speeder 11y ago
  I also have thyroid disease, one of the symptoms is that bones and muscles are weaker, and that losing lean mass is very easy, I tried running before, but it weakens me (literally, I lose muscle), also it hurts a lot (I feel a burning sensation in my leg bones when I run long distances, or when I run several days in a row). The only exercises I do that actually help my health is weight lifting with low reps (with high reps I also start to lose muscle).
dmgbrn 11y ago
Just a suggestion, but if you ended up with a caffeine problem, you're very likely to end up with a Ritalin problem. I don't know exactly what the laws are like where you live, but running out of Ritalin is a much harder problem to solve than running out of coffee.

coleifer 11y ago

Have you ever been to an AA meeting or struggled with addiction? If not then I wouldn't make comments like this.

seizethecheese 11y ago
Why not? HN discusses all sorts of treatments all the time that none of us have tried. Making Alcoholics Anonymous unimpeachable smacks of religiousity.
- billjings 11y ago
  The point is that reading an article on Salon does not make anyone an authority.

nugga 11y ago

Interestingly, one of the founders of AA thought that LSD could be a tremendous help for curing alcoholism: Wilson hoped LSD would help those addicted to alcohol. He realized that A.A. simply did not work for every motivated alcoholic. According to Wilson, “It is a generally acknowledged fact in spiritual development that ego reduction makes the influx of God’s grace possible. If, therefore, under LSD we can have a temporary reduction, so that we can better see what we are and where we are going–well, that might be of some help.” http://mywordlikefire.com/2012/10/28/lsd-researcher-and-a-a-co-founder-bill-wilson/ http://mywordlikefire.com/2012/10/28/lsd-researcher-and-a-a-... http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alcoholics-theory http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alco... http://www.maps.org/research-archive/w3pb/2005/2005_Dyck_22866_1.pdf http://www.maps.org/research-archive/w3pb/2005/2005_Dyck_228... http://www.bbc.com/news/health-17297714 http://www.bbc.com/news/health-17297714