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>That involuntarily unemployment leads to unhappiness is completely irrelevant in a discussion about UBI, which would only allow unemployment for those who want

>That involuntarily unemployment leads to unhappiness is completely irrelevant in a discussion about UBI, which would only allow unemployment for those who wanted it - while allowing others to work. A) Nobody much really wants voluntary unemployment. Not for extended periods, anyway. B) Involuntary unemployment still exists with UBI meaning you still get most of that unhappiness. C) It's not like we're short on useful work even if we are flooded with bullshit jobs and unemployment. We just have a really wasteful allocation of labor. >The bourgeois moralism comes from using that to justify forcing everyone to work, as if dignity had to be imposed on people A job guarantee isn't forcing anybody to do anything and it isn't imposed on anybody. It's an offer of a job to anybody who wants one. >And by the way, this moralist view is probably one of the great culprits for the effect shown in your links - like those people in the Philippines flogging themselves until their flesh is raw and bloody, we can do terrible things to ourselves when we've been convinced that we're lesser human beings. Economic policies that enforce idleness are only going to contribute to that.

icebraining 11y ago
Nobody much really wants voluntary unemployment. Not for extended periods, anyway. Funny thing to say on a site where so many people chose a more challenging life exactly because they didn't want to be employees. Few people want to be idle. That doesn't in any way imply they all want to be employed. There are many ways in which people enjoy living besides being employed - volunteering, studying, researching, exploring, creating art, developing a non-commercially-viable craft or skill, traveling, founding startups and other organizations, the list is endless. B) Involuntary unemployment still exists with UBI meaning you still get most of that unhappiness. When you don't need to pay anything to offer a job, there's absolutely no reason for most businesses not to accept anyone. Only unpleasant jobs that few people want to do will still have to be well remunerated - as it should be. It's not like we're short on useful work even if we are flooded with bullshit jobs and unemployment. We just have a really wasteful allocation of labor. Which is a great practical point in my favor. The State is one of the greatest sources of bullshit jobs; there's no reason to assume the new guaranteed jobs would be better allocated. A job guarantee isn't forcing anybody to do anything and it isn't imposed on anybody. It's an offer of a job to anybody who wants one. If people can't survived without a job, they are forced to get one. If society can easily avoid that but chooses not to for BS moralist reasons, the people advocating for that are forcing others to have jobs. Economic policies that enforce idleness are only going to contribute to that. The idea that there is only a choice between idleness and employment is one of the BS parts of the moralism I was referring to.

icebraining 11y ago

Nobody much really wants voluntary unemployment. Not for extended periods, anyway. Funny thing to say on a site where so many people chose a more challenging life exactly because they didn't want to be employees. Few people want to be idle. That doesn't in any way imply they all want to be employed. There are many ways in which people enjoy living besides being employed - volunteering, studying, researching, exploring, creating art, developing a non-commercially-viable craft or skill, traveling, founding startups and other organizations, the list is endless. B) Involuntary unemployment still exists with UBI meaning you still get most of that unhappiness. When you don't need to pay anything to offer a job, there's absolutely no reason for most businesses not to accept anyone. Only unpleasant jobs that few people want to do will still have to be well remunerated - as it should be. It's not like we're short on useful work even if we are flooded with bullshit jobs and unemployment. We just have a really wasteful allocation of labor. Which is a great practical point in my favor. The State is one of the greatest sources of bullshit jobs; there's no reason to assume the new guaranteed jobs would be better allocated. A job guarantee isn't forcing anybody to do anything and it isn't imposed on anybody. It's an offer of a job to anybody who wants one. If people can't survived without a job, they are forced to get one. If society can easily avoid that but chooses not to for BS moralist reasons, the people advocating for that are forcing others to have jobs. Economic policies that enforce idleness are only going to contribute to that. The idea that there is only a choice between idleness and employment is one of the BS parts of the moralism I was referring to.