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This again. I'm sure everyone would agree that in an ideal world we would be working to simply pluck racism out of the air and get rid of it once and for all.

by untog 11y ago

This again. I'm sure everyone would agree that in an ideal world we would be working to simply pluck racism out of the air and get rid of it once and for all. How do you propose we do that? The reality is that this program is doing something achievable to address the effects of racism. No, it isn't directly tackling the causes of it. There is no reason why we cannot do both. Proposing this "all or nothing" approach almost always ends up with "nothing", and it's almost always proposed by people who do not see the benefit of these programs. Edit: just noticed your edit. Being that hyperbolic does you no favours.

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downandout 11y ago
Who said "all or nothing"? I simply said that they shouldn't make program admissions decisions based upon race or sex. Why not live up to the program's name, and find smart people of any race or sex that are interested in technology? You cannot address the effects of the problems of racism and sexism by practicing them.
- untog 11y ago
  It's a shame, I typed out a whole reply to the previous message you posted before you deleted it. Who said "all or nothing"? I simply said that they shouldn't make program admissions decisions based upon race or sex. Sure! In an ideal world they wouldn't! In reality, they are having decisions made about them dozens of times every day based on their race. So having one or two of those decisions have a positive outcome for a change is a worthwhile thing. If you can't see the difference between racism and something that is attempting to counter the effects of racism then that's a shame. Except that I'm quite sure you can, as can everyone reading this. Boiling these issues down to "everyone should just stop seeing race" is a very easy, convenient way of dismissing the issue. If you propose we stop programs that benefit minorities, perhaps you could outline your plan for stopping the racism that these minorities face every day? It's very easy to sit on a message board and wax lyrical about moral absolutes. The actual world outside doesn't work that way, though.
generic_user 11y ago
"Racism" is a straw man argument. The fact that Asians, Indians and others do very well proves that. The real problems are universal and effect all groups. Pushing Identity politics into these programs and creating exclusive victim hood grievance clubs breeds far more resentment and Racism on all sides then anything else.
- untog 11y ago
  Are you seriously arguing that because some Indian and some Asian people succeed, racism is not actually a problem?
  - generic_user 11y ago
    Your argument is a logical fallacy. If it was institutional "racism" against non-European ethnicities that was a cause of disparity then there would be no Asians, Indians etc. Unless you want to make the claim that Europeans, Asians, and Indians are all "racist" specifically towards Africans in some grand ultra "racism" conspiracy. There would also be a long line of qualified African Engineers that could not get jobs. Which is false. The racism towards Europeans, Asians Indians and others by the Identity Politics Grievance Industry Industry (most of which are 'rich' 'white' peopel) is Disgusting and has no place in Tech or any other field. Its a self perpetuating social cancer that has metastasized in the social sciences.
    - untog 11y ago
      Your argument appears to imply that racism cannot exist if even one person of minority succeeds. That is sheer idiocy. If you're able to hold that opinion in the face of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary I don't think there is a point in continuing.
      - generic_user 11y ago
        You have stated the hypothesis that a conspiracy of "Racism" is the reason why that certain groups under preform in the tech industry. Prove it. Prove that there is a conspiracy of "Racism". Prove that there is a conspiracy of "Racism" between Asians, Europeans, Indians and other groups who have done proportionally well in the tech industry. It is a delusional baseless self serving Ideology not an examination of socioeconomic and educational disparity that perpetuates this narrative of the "Silicone Valley Hood Men" who rule the tech industry.

by untog 11y ago

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downandout 11y ago

Who said "all or nothing"? I simply said that they shouldn't make program admissions decisions based upon race or sex. Why not live up to the program's name, and find smart people of any race or sex that are interested in technology? You cannot address the effects of the problems of racism and sexism by practicing them.

untog 11y ago
It's a shame, I typed out a whole reply to the previous message you posted before you deleted it. Who said "all or nothing"? I simply said that they shouldn't make program admissions decisions based upon race or sex. Sure! In an ideal world they wouldn't! In reality, they are having decisions made about them dozens of times every day based on their race. So having one or two of those decisions have a positive outcome for a change is a worthwhile thing. If you can't see the difference between racism and something that is attempting to counter the effects of racism then that's a shame. Except that I'm quite sure you can, as can everyone reading this. Boiling these issues down to "everyone should just stop seeing race" is a very easy, convenient way of dismissing the issue. If you propose we stop programs that benefit minorities, perhaps you could outline your plan for stopping the racism that these minorities face every day? It's very easy to sit on a message board and wax lyrical about moral absolutes. The actual world outside doesn't work that way, though.

generic_user 11y ago

"Racism" is a straw man argument. The fact that Asians, Indians and others do very well proves that. The real problems are universal and effect all groups. Pushing Identity politics into these programs and creating exclusive victim hood grievance clubs breeds far more resentment and Racism on all sides then anything else.

untog 11y ago
Are you seriously arguing that because some Indian and some Asian people succeed, racism is not actually a problem?
- generic_user 11y ago
  Your argument is a logical fallacy. If it was institutional "racism" against non-European ethnicities that was a cause of disparity then there would be no Asians, Indians etc. Unless you want to make the claim that Europeans, Asians, and Indians are all "racist" specifically towards Africans in some grand ultra "racism" conspiracy. There would also be a long line of qualified African Engineers that could not get jobs. Which is false. The racism towards Europeans, Asians Indians and others by the Identity Politics Grievance Industry Industry (most of which are 'rich' 'white' peopel) is Disgusting and has no place in Tech or any other field. Its a self perpetuating social cancer that has metastasized in the social sciences.
  - untog 11y ago
    Your argument appears to imply that racism cannot exist if even one person of minority succeeds. That is sheer idiocy. If you're able to hold that opinion in the face of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary I don't think there is a point in continuing.
    - generic_user 11y ago
      You have stated the hypothesis that a conspiracy of "Racism" is the reason why that certain groups under preform in the tech industry. Prove it. Prove that there is a conspiracy of "Racism". Prove that there is a conspiracy of "Racism" between Asians, Europeans, Indians and other groups who have done proportionally well in the tech industry. It is a delusional baseless self serving Ideology not an examination of socioeconomic and educational disparity that perpetuates this narrative of the "Silicone Valley Hood Men" who rule the tech industry.