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How a Boeing Sales Flop Became the World's Hottest Secondhand Jetliner
- kunai 11y agoThe 717 is actually not an original Boeing or McDonnell Douglas design; it's a refinement of a very old DC-9 airframe from the 60s massively upgraded with modern avionics and modern systems. The DC-9s (and later, the MD-80/90s) were very well-engineered aircraft, and the fact that their core airframe designs are still in operation some five decades later is a testament to how sound Douglas' original engineering and design methodology was.
- redthrowaway 11y agoYou'd have to think though that a frame built long before CAD and long before you could stress test member components digitally would be much heavier for the same strength (or weaker for the same weight) than a modern airframe which could be min-maxed to high hell before a single sheet of aluminum was stamped.
- jimmcslim 11y agoIs there an opportunity to revisit this design with Dreamliner-style composite materials perhaps?
- notahacker 11y agoNot a commercial one; it's a size of aircraft which already has an anomalously large number of competing new generation rivals.
- chx 11y agoNot only would it need to contend with the massively successful Boeing 737 series and the Airbus A320 family but also the upcoming Bombardier CSeries which is an unusually efficient plane .
- meatysnapper 11y agoThe Mig-25 was mostly build from steel. Steel! Good engineering can be done without the aid of a computer.
- jandrese 11y agoIt was also built with the philosophy that it doesn't really matter what you build the aircraft from as long as the engine is big enough. Of course this hurt its fuel efficiency, but in some ways this was a good thing. The mission it was designed for (intercepting supersonic bombers) doesn't require the plane to loiter and the short range meant it would be difficult to defect with.
- mikeash 11y agoDifficult but not impossible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Belenko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Belenko (Not meant to contradict you, just an interesting story.)
- speeder 11y agoIs a steel plane harder to shoot down than an aluminum plane? Or it makes no difference because the fuselage has to be thin?
- sandworm101 11y agoAbsolutely no difference. Only a handful of near-modern planes (a-10) have any real armor protecting the plane itself. Pilots often sit in metal tubs, but the overall plane is unprotected from anything physical beyond bird strikes. Any protection is incidental to the structural requirements. There might be something to say for a metal with a higher melting/yield temp that could survive longer in a fire but I don't think that enters into the design equation.
- meatysnapper 11y agoThey would have built it from titanium but at titanium welding hadn't been figured out too well then. The Alfa sub hulls were done with plutonium rods if I remember right!
- WalterBright 11y agoThe DC-3 was famously overbuilt because Douglas had no experience with large aircraft and played it safe. The result was the DC-3 was a very robust aircraft, and this contributed to its many decades of service (and still doing so today).
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- sjm-lbm 11y agoI'm not an airplane engineer, but I think a fair amount of it is technical debt, not the quality of the DC-9 design. For example, the 737 - a competing design that came out around the same time - is not only still being made, it's is getting prepped for another minor revision (the 737 Max), and the newest narrowbody airliner design in common worldwide usage (the A320 series) is going on 30 years old. The 717 was launched as the MD-95, a project at McDonnell Douglas to update the DC-9 series for the 90s, and Boeing (after merging with McDonnell Douglas) mostly just built out the already-sold MD order book and then shut the line down. It would likely be very good for a manufacturer to make a new, clean-sheet design with updates like a carbon fiber fuselage, but the time needed to bring such a product to market would cause major problems for any company attempting such a project.
- cstross 11y agoSeveral such craft exist at the bigger end of the regional jet market. There's the Sukhoi Superjet 100, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Superjet_100 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Superjet_100 or the Embraer 190/195. These are both post-2000 airliners that have sold or been ordered in the hundreds (in the case of the Embraer E-jet family, total orders exceed a thousand), which carry around 100-110 passengers in 2+2 or 2+3 seating, and which are designed for much the same market niche. The reason the 717 is popular is because the airframes are fully depreciated; the cost more to run than the newer jets, but are much cheaper to buy or lease. (Source: a guy I know who used to work in Finance for Allegiant, back before they began to diversity from MD-80 family planes.)
- peckrob 11y ago> Several such craft exist at the bigger end of the regional jet market. In fact, there is about to be a veritable boom in that particular market. In addition to the Sukhoi Superjet 100, you have: * The Bombardier CSeries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries) * The Comac ARJ21 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_ARJ21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_ARJ21) * The Irkut MC-21 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irkut_MC-21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irkut_MC-21) * The Mitsubishi MRJ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Regional_Jet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Regional_Jet) This is in addition to established offerings from Embraer and Bombardier (and some Airbus and Boeing at the very high end of the regional jet market with the A-318 and the smaller 737s). Each of these is more or less a clean-sheet design. The CSeries is already in flight testing. Dornier was also trying to enter this market with a new design in the late 90s/early 2000s with the 728 series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Dornier_728_family https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Dornier_728_family), but they ran out of money.
- hga 11y agoIndeed, not mentioning it's the last version of the venerable DC-9 is a major omission. When I started flying from home for educational reasons in late high school in the late '70s Ozark Airlines was all DC-9s, and they sure seemed to be excellent. In reference to other comments on the DC-3, Wikipedia says "the last [Ozark] DC-3 flight was October 1968" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozark_Air_Lines#Jets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozark_Air_Lines#Jets).
- sandworm101 11y agoThe 717 is also one of the few large jets readily converted for gravel runways, giving it a long future in northern operations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelkit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelkit
- Turing_Machine 11y agoThe upside is that the engines are up higher, making them less prone to ingest gravel. The downside (for northern operations) is that they're perfectly positioned to ingest ice coming off the wings. I think there was at least one MD-80 crash caused by that.
- iso8859-1 11y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Airlines_Flight_751 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Airlines_Flight_7...
- mc32 11y agoFrom perhaps false memory, I have the impression some Antonov jets were made with improved/gravel airstrips in mind?
- sandworm101 11y agoEverything russian, from Antonov to the Bear bombers, are designed for rough strips. The classic russian design criteria are high-wings and oversized landing gear. The classic american design is tiny gear and low wings placing the engines within feet of the ground.
- jessaustin 11y agoThe "american design" probably makes maintenance easier?
- Ocerge 11y ago
- biggio 11y ago"The only one that’s sitting idle and not earmarked for another carrier is a Turkmenistan Airlines plane in temporary storage" I don't get it. Why would you park an airplane idle?
- sandworm101 11y agoBecause you don't have the money on hand to return it to flight (ie a part needs replacement). Or it is being held by some creditor and its storage should be called a seizure. There are lots of very expensive parked planes. Ever watch the mythbusters? All the stunts they do with jet engines are with a group of parked 747s. The engines have to be runup every so often to maintain flight readiness.
- lnanek2 11y agoIdle just means it isn't being used for anything at the moment in this case. They aren't referring to keeping the engine running while not moving.
- smackfu 11y agoIt might make sense for a small airline to order a spare plane, just in case it's needed at some point. Especially if that plane model matches their flight profile really well, but also had a small production run so it would be difficult to lease a replacement. And if Boing really wants to get sales of the plane to make it look like a success, there might be a sweet price for that extra plane. And since plane age is measured in takeoff/landing cycles, a plane that is sitting in storage isn't really aging.
- notahacker 11y agoIt's not strictly true that aircraft age is measured in takeoff and landing cycles and YoY depreciation is pretty huge for new aircraft even holding condition constant, but I'd agree that it might make commercial sense to keep a >10 year old 717 on standby. More likely to be short term fluctuations in demand or a short term airworthiness issue than any intent to have a "spare" aircraft though.
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- guard-of-terra 11y agoNo wonder turkmenian airlines failed to respond. Those are the sort of guys who have a form screenshot in place of ticket reservation form. An image.
- robszumski 11y agoI had to check this to see if it was true...and it is!? Why are they doing this? You can't even click on it to get taken to an email address or some other way to collect money from you.
- guard-of-terra 11y agoTurkmenistan is a very closed country so only realistic scenario is buying tickets in their local ticket office. And the site was probably made for a checklist. But you know what, now their site at least provides some kind of working form! http://www.turkmenairlines.org/index.php/ru/2011-06-10-09-40-54.html http://www.turkmenairlines.org/index.php/ru/2011-06-10-09-40...
- adevine 11y agoI clicked a bunch of links in the menu bar and they 404ed. My guess is this is a page in a semi-mockup state that isn't "really" live. The page is also in a weird mix of English and Russian, and thus it looks like this English site isn't really done.
- biggio 11y agoI can't get into http://turkmenairlines.com/ http://turkmenairlines.com/, but this http://www.turkmenairlines.org/ http://www.turkmenairlines.org/ LOL their logo rotates! I don't have to mention it's .org
- jen729w 11y agoOne of the few two-star airlines in the world! http://www.airlinequality.com/ratings/2-star-airline-ratings/ http://www.airlinequality.com/ratings/2-star-airline-ratings... The only one-star is, unsurprisingly, North Korea's airline.
- afterburner 11y ago"global demand has outstripped supply since Delta started assembling a large and growing fleet in 2012, taking advantage of favorable rental terms and a drop in jet-kerosene prices that makes older planes attractive. “They’re kind of the market-maker,” said Robert Agnew, president and chief executive officer of aviation consultant Morten Beyer & Agnew Inc. “If Delta weren’t there, the airplane might be struggling.”" That's the core of the story. It could have been some other model instead. It'd be interesting to know what the circumstances were behind Delta picking the 717.
- raverbashing 11y agoIt might have been a different model, but it is not obvious which one would it be That one segment has some contenders: fokker 100, MD80 (big with AA), even older 737 models in that seat range But I guess Delta made that model work for them
- ubernostrum 11y agoAA is in the process of retiring its MD-80s. Between their fleet of 737s, the A320-family craft they got in the US Airways merger, and the A319s and A321s they have on order, the Mad Dog's days are (thankfully) numbered.
- russell 11y agoBack when I flew regularly the MD-80 and derivatives where my favorite planes to fly because of 5 across rows with wider seats than the 6 abreast 737 which is like flying in a cattle car. My least favorite for long haul trips was the 777. Twelve hours where the seat armrest would go up only part way was too much. It made it very difficult to take advantage of adjacent vacant seats or just cuddle with my wife.
- Xixi 11y agoThe seat armrest is a property of the seats (which are chosen by the airline) rather than a property of the aircraft, so you should blame your choice of airline rather than the perfectly fine 777. I often fly on Air France's 777s between Osaka and Paris and the armrests go up fully. In terms of comfort my best flight in coach was on a Korean Airline A380: spacious and quiet; my worst on a JetStar A330 in cattle-like configuration. But I won't blame/praise Airbus: even though quietness is certainly a quality of the aircraft, the seat layout is absolutely a choice of the airline, so I now avoid JetStar like the plague.
- sshanky 11y agoNot to mention how amazingly QUIET they can be! In the front of the cabin the engines were a barely discernable whisper. Also, I was always intrigued at how far back the wings are mounted, probably due to the rear engines bringing the center of gravity further back.
- thrownaway2424 11y agoMan, I HATE the MD-80 and the 717 and every other plane with body-mounted engines. There's always a beat frequency between the two engines and that's ok for the first couple hours but eventually it drives me crazy. Would be nice if they could somehow lock the engine speed perfectly.
- sshanky 11y agoThis is also something I remember well. I thought they had some way of locking them to the same speed.
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- hackuser 11y ago> ... and a drop in jet-kerosene prices that makes older planes attractive Based on that one comment, said in passing, the cost of jet fuel has dropped enough that airlines now are looking for less-efficient designs. That seems dangerous. Is airline fuel subsidized like automotive fuel is? At least, I doubt the airlines pay for the massive externality of climate change.
- S_A_P 11y agoMost Jet Fuel is bought in long term contracts, and swap deals are usually put in place as a hedge.
- barney54 11y agoTrue, but Delta owns a refinery. http://articles.philly.com/2015-04-17/business/61222460_1_monroe-energy-l-l-c-trainer-refinery-delta-air-lines http://articles.philly.com/2015-04-17/business/61222460_1_mo...
- hga 11y agoTo the extent that supplies their fleet, they're still dependent on others to supply the right grades of crude for it. As the second sentence puts it: Delta said the sharp drop in crude oil prices would translate into a $2.2 billion savings in jet-fuel costs in 2015.
- hollerith 11y agoI know gasoline is extremely cheap in some Middle-Eastern countries, but is gasoline subsidized in the U.S.?
- hga 11y agoNo, it's taxed pretty heavily (well, not by European standards): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_State...
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