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Because I have exactly zero interest in deviating from what I should be focusing on (my business, my product, my clients, my revenue stream) to go dork around w

Because I have exactly zero interest in deviating from what I should be focusing on (my business, my product, my clients, my revenue stream) to go dork around with a text/code editor. Doing so, in the context of a real working business with clients, projects, timelines, deadlines and deliverables would be irresponsible if you can simply pay a company for which that product IS their product and business to deliver what you need and support it. I can see messing around with FOSS as a hobby but unless you are a huge company that can afford to lose clock cycles to your devs playing with FOSS or a medium size company for whom FOSS is a a business it just doesn't make sense. The vast majority of software developers across all disciplines (there's a huge world outside of Silicon Valley, Web Dev and Mobile) have exactly zero need or interest in deviating from their mission to go fix their tools. This is the same reason the vast majority of software developers (again, think outside web folk) have exactly zero interest in vim. It is an utter waste of time compared to point-click-go-go-go.

zeveb 11y ago
> Because I have exactly zero interest in deviating from what I should be focusing on (my business, my product, my clients, my revenue stream) to go dork around with a text/code editor. You can improve your productivity (i.e., increase your revenue) by improving your tools. A blacksmith makes his tools; a developer should be want to extend his environment. > unless you are a huge company that can afford to lose clock cycles to your devs playing with FOSS It's not a loss: it's an investment which pays dividends. > The vast majority of software developers across all disciplines (there's a huge world outside of Silicon Valley, Web Dev and Mobile) have exactly zero need or interest in deviating from their mission to go fix their tools. I have exactly zero interest in hiring or working with someone who is uninterested in improving his productivity. > This is the same reason the vast majority of software developers (again, think outside web folk) have exactly zero interest in vim. It is an utter waste of time compared to point-click-go-go-go. Both vim and emacs are far better and faster at moving structures of code around than the vast majority of GUI editors. Better and faster means…more revenue for less effort. And it's fun!
- clessg 11y ago
  No idea why this is being downvoted. If you ask me, it's irresponsible not to invest in your tools and productivity. If you don't, you're wasting your employer's time and money. A bit of time "dorking around" in Vim will pay huge dividends over time. Give it a shot. Open up `vimtutor`. It's easier than you think!
  - rebootthesystem 11y ago
    Interesting. You see, to me you are wasting our time and money if you do not realize that the time devoted to code entry is insignificant when compared to other aspects of a non-trivial project. It's like putting $300 racing tires on a Toyota Sienna minivan. You can quote all kinds of skid-pad numbers and amazing high speed capabilities, yet you'd be focusing on the wrong problem. You can go much faster by getting a better car with less expensive tires. I know a good percentage of HN members are focused around web development. Please stop for a moment to understand there's much more to software engineering than the web. Much more. Your view of reality is decidedly skewed. I'll give you an example. We've been working on a system that has required over a year of real R&D and thousands of man-hours before we understood how to solve the problem. The software development phase will take about a month or two. And a good chunk of that is debugging, reevaluating assumptions and testing. Nobody here cares one bit about what we use to enter the code (in various languages) comprising this system. It isn't a factor.
    - clessg 11y ago
      Of course there's much more to software engineering than entering and editing text, and you'll need to make a judgment call based on your priorities. I do more than web development, so I don't think your "web dev bias" applies to me. I merely find disagree with your absolutism: > It is an utter waste of time compared to point-click-go-go-go. If you don't have free time to devote to learning an editor, then that's fine. I was referring to those who spend most of their time programming (i.e. at an editor/terminal). As an aside, I'm not sure why you keep mentioning web development. Of all the things that I do, web development requires the least amount of code. Other things have vastly bigger codebases. But yes, if most of your time is spent doing R&D, then you won't benefit much from improving your engineering tools.
calgoo 11y ago
Its one of the reasons why I'm using OSX instead of Linux on my main machine. I do dual boot, but i always come back to OSX for work related stuff. So much easier to install Office 365 (Company Version) and use it directly locally. I could use Linux, and access Office in the Corp VDI session, but i hate the lag. So, in the end, for work, I have learned to pay for the product upfront and then play around during the weekends :)
jordigh 11y ago
> Because I have exactly zero interest in deviating from what I should be focusing on I don't get it. Even if you have no interest, why would you willingly give up the option? All other things being equal, wouldn't you want the ability to do it? You'll get a great product, you'll pay someone else to take care of it, and, should you ever want to fix it yourself or take it to someone else to fix it, you can do that too? Why are you so aggressive against the notion of being allowed to do anything you could possibly want?
- rebootthesystem 11y ago
  Not aggressive. I am simply stating my position based on thirty years of running a range of tech businesses. Others can do as they wish. And they do. And the overwhelming majority of software developers have exactly zero time or interest in deviating from their work to mess with tools source code. Some percentage will customize via macros and relatively minor scripts but virtually none go so far off course as to spend non-trivial time hacking source.
  - jordigh 11y ago
    Language such as "exactly zero", "dork around", "mess around" sounds aggressive, as if people who decide to hack on their tools were beneath you. When you say "utter waste of time" on people who do enjoy working on their vimrc or init.el or whatever, it sounds like you think the person themself is a waste of a person. When you mention how many years you have, you sound pompous, as if you were stating your opinions as facts (years of experience can't be wrong!). It sounds aggressive even if you don't intend it to sound that way. There are ways to other ways to express your opinion without sounding this way. Here, let me try to show you what I mean: "I am not interested in modifying my tools. I would rather pay someone else to do it. If you are spending time modifying your tools, then that is time that could have been better spent on another task. I have many years of experience, which have convinced me that the right way to spend your time is on your product, not your tools." Note the lack of dismissive language such as "absolutely zero" or "exactly zero" or "waste of time" or "I am simply" (this last one is another attempt to present opinions as facts).
logn 11y ago
> in the context of a real working business with clients, projects, timelines, deadlines and deliverables Sounds like FOSS with a support contract would also be appropriate. They might sell you a warranty and indemnity too. Plus your business would have a much better disaster recovery plan if you're not reliant on DRM dev/build tools. Further, selling your business and/or productizing your internal tech can be simpler with FOSS.
greg0ire 11y ago
> It is an utter waste of time compared to point-click-go-go-go. Clicking = moving your hand from the keyboard to the mouse. So it's actually point-click-go-back-to-keyboard-go-go-go when it could be type-go-go-go (or go-go-go-go, if you prefer) . I use vim and when I help colleagues that use phpStorm, they seem slow as fuck. Since they have a sidebarmenu, they don't think about their fuzzy matcher, they don't split their display to show 4 files instead of just one and keep navigating through tabs they did not really mean to open.

zeveb 11y ago

> Because I have exactly zero interest in deviating from what I should be focusing on (my business, my product, my clients, my revenue stream) to go dork around with a text/code editor. You can improve your productivity (i.e., increase your revenue) by improving your tools. A blacksmith makes his tools; a developer should be want to extend his environment. > unless you are a huge company that can afford to lose clock cycles to your devs playing with FOSS It's not a loss: it's an investment which pays dividends. > The vast majority of software developers across all disciplines (there's a huge world outside of Silicon Valley, Web Dev and Mobile) have exactly zero need or interest in deviating from their mission to go fix their tools. I have exactly zero interest in hiring or working with someone who is uninterested in improving his productivity. > This is the same reason the vast majority of software developers (again, think outside web folk) have exactly zero interest in vim. It is an utter waste of time compared to point-click-go-go-go. Both vim and emacs are far better and faster at moving structures of code around than the vast majority of GUI editors. Better and faster means…more revenue for less effort. And it's fun!

clessg 11y ago
No idea why this is being downvoted. If you ask me, it's irresponsible not to invest in your tools and productivity. If you don't, you're wasting your employer's time and money. A bit of time "dorking around" in Vim will pay huge dividends over time. Give it a shot. Open up `vimtutor`. It's easier than you think!
- rebootthesystem 11y ago
  Interesting. You see, to me you are wasting our time and money if you do not realize that the time devoted to code entry is insignificant when compared to other aspects of a non-trivial project. It's like putting $300 racing tires on a Toyota Sienna minivan. You can quote all kinds of skid-pad numbers and amazing high speed capabilities, yet you'd be focusing on the wrong problem. You can go much faster by getting a better car with less expensive tires. I know a good percentage of HN members are focused around web development. Please stop for a moment to understand there's much more to software engineering than the web. Much more. Your view of reality is decidedly skewed. I'll give you an example. We've been working on a system that has required over a year of real R&D and thousands of man-hours before we understood how to solve the problem. The software development phase will take about a month or two. And a good chunk of that is debugging, reevaluating assumptions and testing. Nobody here cares one bit about what we use to enter the code (in various languages) comprising this system. It isn't a factor.
  - clessg 11y ago
    Of course there's much more to software engineering than entering and editing text, and you'll need to make a judgment call based on your priorities. I do more than web development, so I don't think your "web dev bias" applies to me. I merely find disagree with your absolutism: > It is an utter waste of time compared to point-click-go-go-go. If you don't have free time to devote to learning an editor, then that's fine. I was referring to those who spend most of their time programming (i.e. at an editor/terminal). As an aside, I'm not sure why you keep mentioning web development. Of all the things that I do, web development requires the least amount of code. Other things have vastly bigger codebases. But yes, if most of your time is spent doing R&D, then you won't benefit much from improving your engineering tools.

calgoo 11y ago

Its one of the reasons why I'm using OSX instead of Linux on my main machine. I do dual boot, but i always come back to OSX for work related stuff. So much easier to install Office 365 (Company Version) and use it directly locally. I could use Linux, and access Office in the Corp VDI session, but i hate the lag. So, in the end, for work, I have learned to pay for the product upfront and then play around during the weekends :)

jordigh 11y ago

> Because I have exactly zero interest in deviating from what I should be focusing on I don't get it. Even if you have no interest, why would you willingly give up the option? All other things being equal, wouldn't you want the ability to do it? You'll get a great product, you'll pay someone else to take care of it, and, should you ever want to fix it yourself or take it to someone else to fix it, you can do that too? Why are you so aggressive against the notion of being allowed to do anything you could possibly want?

rebootthesystem 11y ago
Not aggressive. I am simply stating my position based on thirty years of running a range of tech businesses. Others can do as they wish. And they do. And the overwhelming majority of software developers have exactly zero time or interest in deviating from their work to mess with tools source code. Some percentage will customize via macros and relatively minor scripts but virtually none go so far off course as to spend non-trivial time hacking source.
- jordigh 11y ago
  Language such as "exactly zero", "dork around", "mess around" sounds aggressive, as if people who decide to hack on their tools were beneath you. When you say "utter waste of time" on people who do enjoy working on their vimrc or init.el or whatever, it sounds like you think the person themself is a waste of a person. When you mention how many years you have, you sound pompous, as if you were stating your opinions as facts (years of experience can't be wrong!). It sounds aggressive even if you don't intend it to sound that way. There are ways to other ways to express your opinion without sounding this way. Here, let me try to show you what I mean: "I am not interested in modifying my tools. I would rather pay someone else to do it. If you are spending time modifying your tools, then that is time that could have been better spent on another task. I have many years of experience, which have convinced me that the right way to spend your time is on your product, not your tools." Note the lack of dismissive language such as "absolutely zero" or "exactly zero" or "waste of time" or "I am simply" (this last one is another attempt to present opinions as facts).

logn 11y ago

> in the context of a real working business with clients, projects, timelines, deadlines and deliverables Sounds like FOSS with a support contract would also be appropriate. They might sell you a warranty and indemnity too. Plus your business would have a much better disaster recovery plan if you're not reliant on DRM dev/build tools. Further, selling your business and/or productizing your internal tech can be simpler with FOSS.

greg0ire 11y ago

> It is an utter waste of time compared to point-click-go-go-go. Clicking = moving your hand from the keyboard to the mouse. So it's actually point-click-go-back-to-keyboard-go-go-go when it could be type-go-go-go (or go-go-go-go, if you prefer) . I use vim and when I help colleagues that use phpStorm, they seem slow as fuck. Since they have a sidebarmenu, they don't think about their fuzzy matcher, they don't split their display to show 4 files instead of just one and keep navigating through tabs they did not really mean to open.