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The Taoist position is more nuanced than to have "a lack of attachment". The lack of attachment is so you wouldn't feel compelled to force the existence of ment

by meric 11y ago

The Taoist position is more nuanced than to have "a lack of attachment". The lack of attachment is so you wouldn't feel compelled to force the existence of mental constructs like family, culture, love, hate, beauty, honor, good, evil, progress. Imagine if the law prescribed the words you can say to your parents/brothers/sisters/friends/shopkeepers. You may be saying "Thank you so much" to the shopkeeper, but by being forced to do it, the meaning behind "Thank you so much" is completely lost. The Taoist position is not to have no narrative. It is to apply relentless non-interference to things, people, and ideas that are in our lives. It is only by standing back, feeling unattached, doing nothing coercive, that family, culture, love, hate, beauty, honor, good, evil, and progress arise naturally, so you can experience life to the fullest. e.g. By trying to force a relationship/family/reunion/ideas into happening, it breaks it, and what was going to be, no longer will be.

hodwik 11y ago
You're confusing the Dao of heaven with the Dao of sages, to borrow from Dao Chapter 81. That is to say, you're confusing Daoism as a practicable and political philosophy (à la Chapter 19, Chapter 80) with Daoism as a metaphysical position (à la Chapter 1). Their actionable practice is to teach the common man and governors some amount of detachment. Their metaphysical position, the one the Dao mentions less, is one of a foundational non-being -- "The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth", "What does 'the greatest misfortune is the self' mean? The reason I have great misfortune is that I have the self. If I have no self, what misfortune do I have?", and particularly nihilist: "Heaven and Earth are impartial, they regard myriad things as straw dogs. The sages are impartial, they regard people as straw dogs." (Straw dogs meaning straw effigies of dogs burnt during holidays.) I'm arguing that their metaphysical position (not their actionable practice) if followed to the end, with the addition of a modern knowledge of physics and biology and so on, ultimately leads one to a metaphysical nihilism.
- meric 11y ago
  That quote with the straw dogs is particularly relevant. Straw dogs are important during the festival. Hours and days are spent procuring and preparing them. - while you have family, your family is important. The straw dogs are then burnt and forgotten. When your family goes don't be attached to force it to stay. Everything is like clothes. While you're wearing them they will keep you warm, and you treat them with some respect. When the clothes are worn out, you throw them away and find new clothes. Are your clothes part of your self even as they keep you warm? Just because you have family does not mean you have to make them your identity, you can still tell a narrative about them, just as there is a narrative with the straw dogs on the day of the festival. If they wanted to use a metaphor to represent something completely unimportant I don't think they'd choose straw dogs. Maybe leaves on the ground or ashes after cooking dinner. Straw dogs are important for a short period of time, like everything.

by meric 11y ago

hodwik 11y ago

You're confusing the Dao of heaven with the Dao of sages, to borrow from Dao Chapter 81. That is to say, you're confusing Daoism as a practicable and political philosophy (à la Chapter 19, Chapter 80) with Daoism as a metaphysical position (à la Chapter 1). Their actionable practice is to teach the common man and governors some amount of detachment. Their metaphysical position, the one the Dao mentions less, is one of a foundational non-being -- "The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth", "What does 'the greatest misfortune is the self' mean? The reason I have great misfortune is that I have the self. If I have no self, what misfortune do I have?", and particularly nihilist: "Heaven and Earth are impartial, they regard myriad things as straw dogs. The sages are impartial, they regard people as straw dogs." (Straw dogs meaning straw effigies of dogs burnt during holidays.) I'm arguing that their metaphysical position (not their actionable practice) if followed to the end, with the addition of a modern knowledge of physics and biology and so on, ultimately leads one to a metaphysical nihilism.

meric 11y ago
That quote with the straw dogs is particularly relevant. Straw dogs are important during the festival. Hours and days are spent procuring and preparing them. - while you have family, your family is important. The straw dogs are then burnt and forgotten. When your family goes don't be attached to force it to stay. Everything is like clothes. While you're wearing them they will keep you warm, and you treat them with some respect. When the clothes are worn out, you throw them away and find new clothes. Are your clothes part of your self even as they keep you warm? Just because you have family does not mean you have to make them your identity, you can still tell a narrative about them, just as there is a narrative with the straw dogs on the day of the festival. If they wanted to use a metaphor to represent something completely unimportant I don't think they'd choose straw dogs. Maybe leaves on the ground or ashes after cooking dinner. Straw dogs are important for a short period of time, like everything.