4 ms·

> how many folks choose to commit suicide, and then in the absence of any easy method, don't, and then ultimately be glad they didn't? I'm one of them. Yet tha

by hirundo 11y ago

> how many folks choose to commit suicide, and then in the absence of any easy method, don't, and then ultimately be glad they didn't? I'm one of them. Yet that gives no one the right to substitute their will to live for mine. I have made many, many wrong decisions in life. Suicide may well one day be my last. But a life in which I'm prevented from making those mistakes is one more worth leaving. > So, to answer your question, yes, I think we should make it harder for them. That would be unethical aggression against another person, and not a mild one. If I resolutely stood between someone and their means of suicide they would be justified in using using deadly force to veto me. > Yes, I agree, absolutely folks should be able to make their own decision, assuming they are of sound mind. But the vast majority of suicide is not by someone of sound mind. That's a Soviet approach to mental health, where having a disfavored opinion was enough to make you legally incompetent. I understand deep depression intimately, yet disagree that it's grounds to infantilize another human.

zzalpha 11y ago
I understand deep depression intimately, yet disagree that it's grounds to infantilize another human. So what about other mental illnesses? Dementia? Schizophrenia? Is it your position that, regardless of the mental state of the individual, their personal decisions should be paramount, no matter the cost, including their own life? If so, then we'll have to agree to disagree. There are many many contexts in which we, as a society, determine that someone is mentally unfit to make decisions, and then treat them differently, whether that be a schizophrenic who is given a different sentence in a trial, a person delirious on pain medication unable to sign a legal contract, or a minor who is denied the right to vote. If you disagree with that basic principle, you disagree with one of the fundamental tenants of the society in which you live. Of course, you're free to feel that way, but don't be surprised if others don't share your views.
- hirundo 11y ago
  > There are many many contexts in which we, as a society, determine that someone is mentally unfit to make decisions And in many of those contexts those determinations are routinely unjustified, and have resulted in massive institutionalized civil rights violations over generations. You can read Thomas Szasz for heartbreaking details (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/Manufacture-Madness-Comparative-Inquisition-Movement/dp/0815604610 http://www.amazon.com/Manufacture-Madness-Comparative-Inquis...). Hopefully someday we can look back on such policies with similar horror to how we now see 17th century Bedlam. Instead of using them as arguments for further authoritarianism.
  - zzalpha 11y ago
    And in many of those contexts those determinations are routinely unjustified And many contexts where they are. And 'round and 'round we go... But, I think you answered my question, however indirectly: you believe all such rules/laws/whatever are unjustified. I believe that's madness, but hey, we'll agree to disagree. Have a nice day! And I wish you luck with your depression, it really is a constant challenge (my wife struggles with it, so while I can't speak from direct experience, I have an enormous amount of sympathy).

by hirundo 11y ago

zzalpha 11y ago

I understand deep depression intimately, yet disagree that it's grounds to infantilize another human. So what about other mental illnesses? Dementia? Schizophrenia? Is it your position that, regardless of the mental state of the individual, their personal decisions should be paramount, no matter the cost, including their own life? If so, then we'll have to agree to disagree. There are many many contexts in which we, as a society, determine that someone is mentally unfit to make decisions, and then treat them differently, whether that be a schizophrenic who is given a different sentence in a trial, a person delirious on pain medication unable to sign a legal contract, or a minor who is denied the right to vote. If you disagree with that basic principle, you disagree with one of the fundamental tenants of the society in which you live. Of course, you're free to feel that way, but don't be surprised if others don't share your views.

hirundo 11y ago
> There are many many contexts in which we, as a society, determine that someone is mentally unfit to make decisions And in many of those contexts those determinations are routinely unjustified, and have resulted in massive institutionalized civil rights violations over generations. You can read Thomas Szasz for heartbreaking details (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/Manufacture-Madness-Comparative-Inquisition-Movement/dp/0815604610 http://www.amazon.com/Manufacture-Madness-Comparative-Inquis...). Hopefully someday we can look back on such policies with similar horror to how we now see 17th century Bedlam. Instead of using them as arguments for further authoritarianism.
- zzalpha 11y ago
  And in many of those contexts those determinations are routinely unjustified And many contexts where they are. And 'round and 'round we go... But, I think you answered my question, however indirectly: you believe all such rules/laws/whatever are unjustified. I believe that's madness, but hey, we'll agree to disagree. Have a nice day! And I wish you luck with your depression, it really is a constant challenge (my wife struggles with it, so while I can't speak from direct experience, I have an enormous amount of sympathy).