5 ms·

Anyone who does not like MS because of the $ cannot at the same time like Java.

by fiatjaf 11y ago

Someone1234 11y ago
Indeed. And they cannot play the "but Java is OSS" card anymore as Oracle has made it pretty clear that Java's APIs are proprietary and that you will be sued if you do anything not authorised by them (which effectively removes the 'open' in "open source software"). Say what you will about the Android Java situation, but it doesn't exactly scream "this is open and free software."
- deegles 11y ago
  I read somewhere that Microsoft's structured the patents/licenses in the .NET ecosystem in such a way as to make that kind of lawsuit unlikely. Can anyone comment if that is true?
  - jongalloway2 11y ago
    There are patent pledges and promises not to assert patents: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecifications https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecifications Portions of .NET are under ECMA and ISO standards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Language_Infrastructure#Standardization_and_licensing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Language_Infrastructure... I think the most important part is that the new cross-platform .NET core framework, CLR, and compiler (Roslyn) are under permissive open source licenses (MIT for fx and clr, Apache 2 for Roslyn). You can see licenses and patent pledges here: https://github.com/dotnet/ https://github.com/dotnet/ Disclaimers: 1. Microsoft employee until they notice I'm hanging out on hacker news instead of replying to e-mails and "fix the glitch". 2. Not that smart and definitely not a lawyer.
    - fimoreth 11y ago
      > 1. Microsoft employee until they notice I'm hanging out on hacker news instead of replying to e-mails and "fix the glitch". Shh, they might find us.
      - mseri 11y ago
        Sounds like a fun job! Do you want to hire me? ;)
  - carussell 11y ago
    Not true, at least not for the CLR and the framework itself. The crux of the Oracle v Google suit is basically, "It's Java, but it's not Java Java." If you take a look at the MS patent promise, the way it's authored specifically allows for the very same kind of suit. https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/blob/master/PATENTS.TXT https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/blob/master/PATENTS.TXT
    - carussell 11y ago
      Somebody didn't like this comment. Please explain.
- fiatjaf 11y ago
  Not to mention that every Windows JRE installer comes with Ask Toolbar or similar stuff.
  - guipsp 11y ago
    Not every.
    - jongalloway2 11y ago
      I usually dodge the Ask Toolbar by installing the JDK via Chocolatey: https://chocolatey.org/packages/jdk8 https://chocolatey.org/packages/jdk8
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
BetaCygni 11y ago
It's not a question of $ or of liking MS, it is a question of trust. Microsoft can and will suddenly discontinue entire solutions like Silverlight. I know of a company that is in real trouble because they first rewrote their entire application in Silverlight and now have to do it again in HTML5... Java on the desktop is almost dead due to the horrible JRE by Oracle. On the server and on Android it is alive and well, and the community is big enough to keep it going even if Oracle loses interest. It will also make its return to the desktop one day when someone figures out how to make it suck less, as the language and the available libraries are awesome.
- brusch64 11y ago
  @Silverlight: are you much better off if you've wrote a Java Applet at the same time ? (I think this was the right thing to do in Java back then) We were trying to use Java Webstart, but we gave up, because of the fact that some modern browsers just block the Java plugin. I have to use a Java applet for some customer VPN's I am connecting to and the only browser this works for me is Internet Explorer to connect to those VPNs. You can still write Winforms applications and this is some really old technique. Maybe you are still able to use MFC, but I haven't tested that in a LONG time.
  - BetaCygni 11y ago
    That's true, but at least Java applets died a natural death instead of being axed. I checked the history of Silverlight and the first version was released in 2007. jQuery was released in 2006 so Silverlight was a classic case of "too little, too late". Real Java applications run well nowadays, so much so that you don't notice it's Java (except that you always have to give them more memory...) And yes, you can still use MFC ;)
- txdv 11y ago
  suddenly? are you serious? it was dead from the beginning. that is like saying, o my god, i think the rotting corpse that has been lying in here for 3 months is dead!
  - 11y ago

Anyone who does not like MS because of the $ cannot at the same time like Java.

by fiatjaf 11y ago

Anyone who does not like MS because of the $ cannot at the same time like Java.

Indeed. And they cannot play the "but Java is OSS" card anymore as Oracle has made it pretty clear that Java's APIs are proprietary and that you will be sued if you do anything not authorised by them (which effectively removes the 'open' in "open source software"). Say what you will about the Android Java situation, but it doesn't exactly scream "this is open and free software."

deegles 11y ago
I read somewhere that Microsoft's structured the patents/licenses in the .NET ecosystem in such a way as to make that kind of lawsuit unlikely. Can anyone comment if that is true?
- jongalloway2 11y ago
  There are patent pledges and promises not to assert patents: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecifications https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecifications Portions of .NET are under ECMA and ISO standards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Language_Infrastructure#Standardization_and_licensing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Language_Infrastructure... I think the most important part is that the new cross-platform .NET core framework, CLR, and compiler (Roslyn) are under permissive open source licenses (MIT for fx and clr, Apache 2 for Roslyn). You can see licenses and patent pledges here: https://github.com/dotnet/ https://github.com/dotnet/ Disclaimers: 1. Microsoft employee until they notice I'm hanging out on hacker news instead of replying to e-mails and "fix the glitch". 2. Not that smart and definitely not a lawyer.
  - fimoreth 11y ago
    > 1. Microsoft employee until they notice I'm hanging out on hacker news instead of replying to e-mails and "fix the glitch". Shh, they might find us.
    - mseri 11y ago
      Sounds like a fun job! Do you want to hire me? ;)
- carussell 11y ago
  Not true, at least not for the CLR and the framework itself. The crux of the Oracle v Google suit is basically, "It's Java, but it's not Java Java." If you take a look at the MS patent promise, the way it's authored specifically allows for the very same kind of suit. https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/blob/master/PATENTS.TXT https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/blob/master/PATENTS.TXT
  - carussell 11y ago
    Somebody didn't like this comment. Please explain.
fiatjaf 11y ago
Not to mention that every Windows JRE installer comes with Ask Toolbar or similar stuff.
- guipsp 11y ago
  Not every.
  - jongalloway2 11y ago
    I usually dodge the Ask Toolbar by installing the JDK via Chocolatey: https://chocolatey.org/packages/jdk8 https://chocolatey.org/packages/jdk8
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]

BetaCygni 11y ago

It's not a question of $ or of liking MS, it is a question of trust. Microsoft can and will suddenly discontinue entire solutions like Silverlight. I know of a company that is in real trouble because they first rewrote their entire application in Silverlight and now have to do it again in HTML5... Java on the desktop is almost dead due to the horrible JRE by Oracle. On the server and on Android it is alive and well, and the community is big enough to keep it going even if Oracle loses interest. It will also make its return to the desktop one day when someone figures out how to make it suck less, as the language and the available libraries are awesome.

brusch64 11y ago
@Silverlight: are you much better off if you've wrote a Java Applet at the same time ? (I think this was the right thing to do in Java back then) We were trying to use Java Webstart, but we gave up, because of the fact that some modern browsers just block the Java plugin. I have to use a Java applet for some customer VPN's I am connecting to and the only browser this works for me is Internet Explorer to connect to those VPNs. You can still write Winforms applications and this is some really old technique. Maybe you are still able to use MFC, but I haven't tested that in a LONG time.
- BetaCygni 11y ago
  That's true, but at least Java applets died a natural death instead of being axed. I checked the history of Silverlight and the first version was released in 2007. jQuery was released in 2006 so Silverlight was a classic case of "too little, too late". Real Java applications run well nowadays, so much so that you don't notice it's Java (except that you always have to give them more memory...) And yes, you can still use MFC ;)
txdv 11y ago
suddenly? are you serious? it was dead from the beginning. that is like saying, o my god, i think the rotting corpse that has been lying in here for 3 months is dead!
- 11y ago