20 ms·

Introducing JetBrains Toolbox

117 points by blacktulip 11y ago

jaboutboul 11y ago
"Will I be able to upgrade my perpetual license to a new perpetual license or renew my upgrade subscription? No. Major version upgrades for perpetual licenses to new perpetual licenses will no longer be offered as of November 2, 2015. As an existing customer, you will be able to switch your perpetual license to our new subscription based model with a discount." Well let me be the first to say, this sucks. As a user (and lover) of Jetbrains products (pycharm, IDEA, phpstorm) over the years, I never though they would ever go down this path.
- gorohoroh 11y ago
  Let's discuss. Why do you think this is bad?
  - kevinherron 11y ago
    I don't like the idea that my IDE is a tool that will stop working if I stop paying the ransom for it. This model may be the future, but it's a very icky feeling that I can't purchase to own software that runs entirely on my desktop, since that's been the model for YEARS. Paying annually for support and to receive upgrades feels very reasonable. My IDE ceasing to function because I've stopped paying annually does not.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - sirn 11y ago
    Not the OP, but I'm also not really a fan of subscription model of any software products even though I'm OK with paying for upgrades every year. With subscription model I no longer own the software the moment I stopped paying, even if I already paid monthly fee to equivalent of perpetual license pricing. But on the other hand, considering I'm already paying $158 for two of their products every year (IDEA and AppCode), being able to pay $149 (discounted rate) and also get a separate app for RubyMine and PyCharm seems like a very nice offer. (Since Ruby/Python plugins in IDEA always lacked few versions behind.) Nevertheless, I'm sad that to see another one of my most-used software goes away from perpetual license to subscription model.
  - mobiuscog 11y ago
    It's no longer a product - it's a service. Good examples of the way to do this, include Cakewalk and Allegorithmic which both implement a form of pay-to-own. After enough payments, you own a product that you can keep using if you no longer need 'enhancements'. Whilst software-as-a-service is great for many people, it's not a panacea and certainly not a replacement for people who just want a product that they buy once and can use when they like without further outlay.
  - anu_gupta 11y ago
    Because right now, we can pay a one time fee and use the software as long as we want, without incurring any more cost in return for not getting updates or imposing a cost on JetBrains. However, from November, that will no longer be possible. If Jetbrains decides, in 2016, to increase the license fee to $300 per year, or $500, then we will have 2 options: Pay it and continue to have access, or don't pay, and lose all access to the tools, despite the fact that we have already given you money. If I have a cashflow problem, I can no longer decide to stay with last year's version for a while, instead I lose access. I'm sure you know this, I'm sure everyone at JetBrains knows this.
    - s73v3r 11y ago
      The license seems to say that if you stop paying, you can still use the most recent version as of when your subscription expired. So technically you could subscribe for one month, get the software, and keep using it until you saw a version that was compelling enough to upgrade to.
      - anu_gupta 11y ago
        That's not how I'm reading it, and I'd be amazed if that was the case, because then, you literally could pay £6 and get PHPStorm to use forever.
        s73v3r 11y ago
        That's according to a post earlier in the thread from the guy I presume is from JetBrains. It's also similar to the license Epic had for Unreal Engine, before they got rid of the monthly fee.
        anu_gupta 11y ago
        You seem to be conflating the perpetual licence, which is what we have currently and will stop being available in November with the new subscription. If I do not move to the subscription model, I can continue to use my current version of PHPStorm, in perpetuity. However, I cannot subscribe under the new terms, and keep using the software if I decide to stop subscribing. Earlier in this thread you suggested that we could subscribe for a month and keep using the software afterwards. This is incorrect. Once you stop subscribing, you lose the rights to use the software
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - Aldo_MX 11y ago
    Peace of mind is a really important feature you are discarding with this model. Not every compelling feature is implemented with code.
- crudbug 11y ago
  Subscription based model is superior in maintaining constant cash flow.
  - toyg 11y ago
    But it's a form of rent, with all that it implies.
  - teacup50 11y ago
    Only because it's a coercive model, and bad for the people supplying the cash flow.
lol768 11y ago
One of the things I liked about the previous model was that I could continue using an older version of the software, assuming it met my needs and evaluate future planned features and future versions before deciding to purchase an upgrade or new license. If I don't renew, I don't get support and I can't use the new features in the new version - but I can still use the software I purchased in the state it was in. If I'm understanding correctly, there's no option not to upgrade and continue using an old version of the product under the new model - the instant you stop paying, the product can no longer be used (after the month has finished). Personally this makes me feel like I don't 'own' the software anymore - instead, I'm just renting it. I'm also interested to see if IntelliJ IDEA Ultimate will continue to offer the other language plugins (PHP, Python etc) that allows it to do what the other IDEs do under this pricing model. I'd have no problem with this pricing approach if it was available alongside the existing system - so developers who use many different languages can use the subscription service if they feel it offers better value for them. Developers who prefer the previous model can opt to continue renewing annually to receive support and updates. I'm somewhat surprised and disappointed to see JetBrains forcing everyone down this path once their existing licenses have expired.
- gorohoroh 11y ago
  If you have an existing perpetual license, you can use it infinitely, just as the license agreement stated when you purchased it. We do however offer a switch to the new model if you like it and if you're interested in new versions that your perpetual license doesn't cover. If you do switch to the new model, you pay as long as you need to use a tool, and you always get the latest version. IntelliJ Ultimate will continue to offer language plugins, nothing changes in this regard.
  - lol768 11y ago
    > If you have an existing perpetual license, you can use it infinitely, just as the license agreement stated when you purchased it. My understanding of the agreement is that you can use the software infinitely with the version that was available on the last day of the subscription term. As languages and frameworks change, it seems inevitable that everyone who wants to continue working with the latest stable version will be forced to subscribe via the Toolbox (because the renewal of the perpetual license is no longer supported), at which point they no longer own the software they are paying for.
dump100 11y ago
if anyone from jetbrains here, in India it is showing prices using hindi (devanagari) numerals which are no longer in common use, even when text is in Hindi, most people will not even understand it. Would recommend to regular numerals.
- caio1982 11y ago
  Hey, that's quite funny if you consider these "numerals" were actually developed in India eons ago. That's full circle enough to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_s...
- rdemmer 11y ago
  Thanks for reporting this. We have taken note and will pass along to our web team.
shrugisor 11y ago
I'm actually quite upset about this. I love PyCharm and I've always upgraded to most recent major version because even though I didn't necessarily need all the new features, I wanted to support JetBrains for making such great software. So now I'm stuck using PyCharm 4.x forever unless I pay a monthly fee to upgrade. And if I stop paying I lose access to my IDE? Truly an awful way to treat loyal customers. I can only hope that JetBrains abandons this new SaaS model or has some plan to allow users to purchase either a perpetual license or a subscription a-la Microsoft Office. If not, then I hope Atom or Sublime Text get some robust debugging plugins for Python like PyCharm has.
- thawkins 11y ago
  I agree, im a cLion and a PhpStorm licensee, and this is a disaster. Im going to have to start moving back to netbeans. We where about to kit out our entire department with phpstorm but now its going to be really really hard to justify this. This is nothing about being more convient for customers, its about screwing more money out of people. I am very very disapointed.
  - gorohoroh 11y ago
    For commercial PhpStorm licenses a rough comparison would as follows. Before November 2: First year: $199 a seat Each subsequent year: $129 a seat After November 2: First year and each subsequent year: $119-149 a seat (with/without a promotion available)
    - lol768 11y ago
      Except that before November 2nd a company could pay $199 once and never again until they felt the need to upgrade. Following November 2nd, a company has no choice but to cough up the yearly fee or the software stops working and the developers can't do any work without changing the software they use.
      - timv 11y ago
        cough up the yearly fee or the software stops working and the developers can't do any work Yup, and all it takes is for an invoice to get misplaced or delayed in your accounts payable team and development grinds to a halt.
fiveoak 11y ago
It's pretty cool to finally have a discount option to subscribe to all of the JetBrains products. When my existing IntelliJ license free upgrade period expires I'll probably subscribe to the "all products" option. That said, it's a bit upsetting they don't seem to offer corporate perpetual licenses anymore. It's a lot easier to justify the expense when it could be a one-time expense. Suddenly having your critical work tools stop working (for instance, during a budget freeze) is somewhat unacceptable.
- gorohoroh 11y ago
  Yes, the change applies to corporate licenses, too. As a bonus for them, there's a transparent model of discounts based on number of licenses and term of payment (https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/#commercial https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/#commercial) We're used to helping users of commercial licenses who are faced with delayed payments in their companies, and I'm sure we'll be doing this with the new model as well.
selleck 11y ago
Better buy Webstorm now so I can get it as a perpetual license. I can see October being a huge month where people buy perpetual copies of tools they were thinking about buying in the past.
mkaziz 11y ago
If they're interested in doing this for the customer's sake, they should offer the customer a choice. If they're ramming it down people's throats, then they're really just doing it for their wallets.
coldtea 11y ago
I'm already in 10 subscription services, from Dropbox and iCloud to Abobe, music plugins, etc. How much worse would it be in the future, when we'd regularly have to fork $500 per month or so (rent money in most of the world) just to keep using our software? The situation reminds me of this part from Ubik by Philip K. Dick: Back in the kitchen he fished in his various pockets for a dime, and, with it, started up the coffeepot. Sniffing the - to him - very unusual smell, he again consulted his watch, saw that fifteen minutes had passed; he therefore vigorously strode to the apt door, turned the knob and pulled on the release bolt. The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the door said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt.” In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. “You discover I’m right,” the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt’s money-gulping door. “I’ll sue you,” the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, “I’ve never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it.” A knock sounded on the door. “Hey, Joe, baby, it’s me, G. G. Ashwood. And I’ve got her right here with me. Open up.” “Put a nickel in the slot for me,” Joe said. “The mechanism seems to be jammed on my side.” A coin rattled down into the works of the door; it swung open and there stood G. G. Ashwood with a brilliant look on his face. It pulsed with sly intensity, an erratic, gleaming triumph as he propelled the girl forward and into the apt.
- farmdog 11y ago
  On top of the money going out periodically, it's about the cognitive load it places on the customers. I have enough decisions to make every day; additional services to consider adds the amount of time I need to think about writing off certain subscriptions from my taxes, whether or not I renew, time to make sure my credit card is up to date, check to make sure my subscription doesn't require when I'm on vacation without Internet and want to code, etc. A one-time purchase loads all of that into a single occurrence where I need that product instead of bringing it up at a calendar-determined interval. My company uses WebStorm regularly because it's a solid IDE for Linux; I've heard of Visual Studio Code running on Linux; have people found that comparable?
brianwawok 11y ago
I really really really hate renting software. On the flip side - IntelliJ comes out with a new version every single year, and if you don't upgrade you are kind of screwed (At least as someone who codes latest cut of Scala) So not a big change to my wallet, but it does make me sad a little.
redwards510 11y ago
I understand that people wouldn't like the idea of not "owning" their copy, but is this really that much different than what we're doing already? current model: purchase new upgraded version of resharper every year (or two). abandon old version. new model: subscribe to resharper. upgrade when new version comes out. abandon old version. Is anyone really using a copy of resharper 6 right now? and VS2010?
- lol768 11y ago
  Yes, I still use an old copy of ReSharper at home. I don't use C# often enough to justify paying every year and I'm quite content to sit on an older version of the IDE & its plugins because I rarely boot into Windows anyway.
- wvenable 11y ago
  Still using VS2010 although I'm in the works to move to VS2015 -- skipped 2012 and 2013 entirely. I also have phpStorm but I didn't upgrade this year as I'm not doing as much PHP development anymore. However, I still use it to make changes to old code bases.
- bobcostas55 11y ago
  The difference is that the new purchases provided a strong incentive to JetBrains to make their software better. If the new version doesn't add anything useful, people wouldn't upgrade. Now you have to keep paying whether they add features or not.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    OTOH, if the subscription price is substantially lower than the pre-subscription purchase price, JetBrains has to keep improving faster than the competition long enough to get you to keep buying the subscription for several cycles instead of switching to a competing option or they are losing money from going from outright purchase to subscription.
    - Aldo_MX 11y ago
acveilleux 11y ago
As someone who mostly uses PyCharm and doesn't do web work, I guess this will have no effect on me for quite a while. Almost all the new PyCharm features I've noticed in 4.5 have had to do with web frameworks, none of which I use.
ddorian43 11y ago
tldr: We learned that we can charge much more for our products and we're doing just that. Here are some useless tweets.
hoopism 11y ago
I am struggling to see how this benefits the consumer. I read that whole release wondering if they actually believed that this was some sort of reaction to consumer demand or if they just think people are incredibly ignorant. No thanks. Surprised I didn't see a tweet that read: "Dear JetBrains. I loved buying your product so much I want to do it EVERY month!"
- snuxoll 11y ago
  Personally, as a polygot developer who works a lot in both Visual Studio with ReSharper and IntelliJ, this is an overall cost savings for me and simplifies things a lot. Instead of paying my $99/yr to renew IntelliJ, and another $129/yr to upgrade ReSharper - I can switch to the $149/yr 'everything included` plan and get a couple tools I don't already have (CLion being a big one). If you're the kind of person who doesn't maintain their existing S&M subscription then it will end up costing you more, but typically this will break even for people that do regularly maintain them. EDIT: Am I honestly getting downvoted because I'm not hopping aboard the wold-is-ending-because-subscriptions-are-bad circlejerk? I expect this kind of behavior on Reddit, not HN. It's not like I'm telling anyone "you're wrong" for not liking the changes, but I certainly hope I'm allowed to state my opinion too.
  - teacup50 11y ago
    This is a short-sighted view. JetBrains now controls pricing, and the relationship itself is coercive. This means that you have no control over pricing, and that JetBrains doesn't need to worry about whether you'll renew year-to-year if they don't produce upgrades that make your renewal worthwhile. Long-term mutually beneficial economic relationships are rarely built on top of coercive models that give one party such an enormous advantage.
    - hoopism 11y ago
      This is a very good explanation of why this is bad for consumers.
    - cscharenberg 11y ago
beagle3 11y ago
I can find no mention about what happens to the community edition. Will it still be available, or is it going to disappear?
- gorohoroh 11y ago
  IntelliJ IDEA Community Edition, dotPeek and all other free tools stay free as before. Nothing changes in this respect.
anu_gupta 11y ago
Odd that this is suddenly on the 3rd page of HN - has it been flagged or attracted some kind of penalty?
- gorohoroh 11y ago
  Probably by virtue of total karma lost by JetBrains reps here.
- noarchy 11y ago
  I was suspicious of this, too, as I am anytime a seemingly-popular article suddenly vanishes from the front page.
Stratoscope 11y ago
From the FAQ: > 9. Can I use my personal license on multiple machines? > You may install the license on more than one machine but it may be used on only one machine at a time. To run multiple installations simultaneously, each instance requires a separate license. https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb (#9 under License Types and Users) Will I still be able to run multiple instances of ReSharper on the same machine? This is pretty essential to my workflow. For example, I have three instances of VS2015 open at the moment: One for my Unity project, another for a C# plugin, and a third for the installer. ReSharper runs fine in all of them. I can also run these on my Windows machine while having IDEA open on my Mac. (Actually the Windows machine is a Parallels VM, but same difference.) Will this capability go away? That would be unfortunate.
- hhariri 11y ago
  Could you please link to the FAQ entry for this?
  - Stratoscope 11y ago
    Good idea, thanks. I updated my comment above with the link.
- cscharenberg 11y ago
  This is a good question. I usually have multiple PyCharm instances running and have never had a problem. I never thought about it until my wife started up PyCharm on my other computer and I got a notice saying another computer on the network was using a license and one of us needed to quit. JetBrains needs to reassure us multiple instances are ok on same machine and across VMs. Will running the IDE in OS X and also a guest Linux VM look like multi-machine use? If so, that's really a bad flaw in licensing.
  - gorohoroh 11y ago
    We're not changing anything in this regard: if it works now, it will work the same way with new subscription licenses. If you encounter a case when a setup like this doesn't work, please contact JetBrains and we'll look into resolving the problem.
tomku 11y ago
If you want to fix this and regain some of the respect that you've lost in the past few hours, here's my suggestion. Keep the subscription model. Set the non-discounted prices for a year's subscription at the same price level that perpetual license upgrades were. The monthly prices can be higher, maybe 20% more for a year billed monthly than annually. Offer a 10% grandfathered discount to apologize to your current customers for forcing them onto a subscription model. Don't offer any kind of promotional discount on the "all the Jetbrains" package deal - it's already underpriced. I think that this is a reasonable compromise that allows switching to a subscription model without screwing over either old or new customers. Additionally, be honest. Many of your customers and most of your users are developers. We understand the upsides and downsides of a subscription model from both perspectives. Trying to spin away those downsides will backfire and leave us feeling taken advantage of. You've spent many years building up all this developer goodwill, it would be a shame to lose it over something like this.
- gorohoroh 11y ago
  That's a great comment, thank you. Let me check how all the prices relate once again and come back to you.
endijs 11y ago
If this change is so beneficial to users - lets put it to the test. JetBrains - put up public voting (which you do not have control over) and let us vote on which licensing deal we like more: old one or new one. Then we can talk if this is really something that developers really want.
- wvenable 11y ago
  Honestly if the pricing was better and some of the smaller tier plans let me use more products, I might be good with it. But this is literally the same cost for less product unless I want to pay more to get everything.
mekael 11y ago
My department (for the most part) has a "no subscription" policy when it comes to most things, especially tools. I love using ReSharper and 0xDBE (possibly the number two application in my toolbox), but it will be hard to justify this to management. If you offered a perpetual license after 12 months, or kept both SAAS and the perceptual license(you could charge quite a bit more in this case) it would be excellent. Edit: If you charged me 10 bucks a month for 0xDBE I wouldnt be able to get it approved even on a good day. Charge us 500 a year then the check would be cut that afternoon.
TheLoneWolfling 11y ago
I do not "rent" software. Full stop.
slccsoccer28 11y ago
This came up earlier and I ended up writing a lettering to Jetbrians. If you are upset by this change, please let Jetbrains know! Customer input has helped companies reverse similar policies in the past. You can quickly customize and send it out here (this site has been a side project for me): https://www.sincerelyme.org/everything-else/jetbrains-subscription-based-model_i50 https://www.sincerelyme.org/everything-else/jetbrains-subscr... ------ It's also copied into the post below: Email at: busdev@jetbrains.com Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/JetBrains https://www.facebook.com/JetBrains More at: https://www.jetbrains.com/company/contacts/ https://www.jetbrains.com/company/contacts/ ---- Dear Jetbrains, I am writing to express my thorough disappointment with the decision for Jetbrains to switch to a subscription based model. While I understand the need for businesses to monetize, I feel that this monetization strategy is completely over looking the needs and desires of your historically loyal user base. I could understand this decision if your products were serviced-based or hosted (i.e. cloud) solutions, but as a stand-alone, desktop software this decision only serves to benefit one party. Not only are you questioning historically loyal users by continuously asking them to show their support for your product, you are literally devaluing your product by requiring me to repurchase it on a recurring basis. No longer do I have the option to purchase a high-value, life long, perpetual license for your product. I do not understand how Jetbrains can drag themselves to the ranks of often, lackluster subscription based software. I have long been a loyal and vocal advocate for Jetbrains software and customer service. Your software does make my job easier and I do enjoy using it. Your customer support and involvement with your loyal community has long been top notch. I often go out of my way to explain why I love using your products, like Webstorm and PHPStorm, and have convinced many people to switch to Jetbrains. After this decision, I have no desire to continue advocating your historically incredible software and intend to make it very clear to potential users of how you’ve decided to treat loyal users. This decision shows a lack of empathy for the community you have worked so hard to build and I am extremely concerned about your future considerations of myself and the rest of the community. Unless Jetbrains decides to amend this new policy with consideration for traditional, perpetual based licenses, I will no longer be purchasing new offerings. I will use the current version of software. When I feel they are no longer suitable for use, I will look for alternatives offering perpetual licenses or simply use a text editor. Again, your software does make my job easier and I do enjoy using it, but I want to make it clear that I do not need to you your software. There are plenty of acceptable alternative IDE's and, of course, I can always use a standard text editor. I hope Jetbrains can recognize the error of their ways and address this issue in response to the community. I want to continue enjoying your products and advocating for a historically incredible brand. Sincerely, {Your Name}
wildmXranat 11y ago
Dude - just no! Stop making me rent desktop tools which ought to be just there after I pay for them. I will not be upgrading PyCharm and PHPStorm annual after this. It will happily stay in the old version. Even though my cost of $49 that I paid last year is still the same in this pricing model, but instead of that price being the norm, it is qualified with a double asterix.- as in for existing users. So new users are getting shafted an extra 30 bones on top of what I pay. So in solidarity with new users, thanks but no thanks. Pretty bogus if you ask me.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

117 points by blacktulip 11y ago

"Will I be able to upgrade my perpetual license to a new perpetual license or renew my upgrade subscription? No. Major version upgrades for perpetual licenses to new perpetual licenses will no longer be offered as of November 2, 2015. As an existing customer, you will be able to switch your perpetual license to our new subscription based model with a discount." Well let me be the first to say, this sucks. As a user (and lover) of Jetbrains products (pycharm, IDEA, phpstorm) over the years, I never though they would ever go down this path.

gorohoroh 11y ago
Let's discuss. Why do you think this is bad?
- kevinherron 11y ago
  I don't like the idea that my IDE is a tool that will stop working if I stop paying the ransom for it. This model may be the future, but it's a very icky feeling that I can't purchase to own software that runs entirely on my desktop, since that's been the model for YEARS. Paying annually for support and to receive upgrades feels very reasonable. My IDE ceasing to function because I've stopped paying annually does not.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- sirn 11y ago
  Not the OP, but I'm also not really a fan of subscription model of any software products even though I'm OK with paying for upgrades every year. With subscription model I no longer own the software the moment I stopped paying, even if I already paid monthly fee to equivalent of perpetual license pricing. But on the other hand, considering I'm already paying $158 for two of their products every year (IDEA and AppCode), being able to pay $149 (discounted rate) and also get a separate app for RubyMine and PyCharm seems like a very nice offer. (Since Ruby/Python plugins in IDEA always lacked few versions behind.) Nevertheless, I'm sad that to see another one of my most-used software goes away from perpetual license to subscription model.
- mobiuscog 11y ago
  It's no longer a product - it's a service. Good examples of the way to do this, include Cakewalk and Allegorithmic which both implement a form of pay-to-own. After enough payments, you own a product that you can keep using if you no longer need 'enhancements'. Whilst software-as-a-service is great for many people, it's not a panacea and certainly not a replacement for people who just want a product that they buy once and can use when they like without further outlay.
- anu_gupta 11y ago
  Because right now, we can pay a one time fee and use the software as long as we want, without incurring any more cost in return for not getting updates or imposing a cost on JetBrains. However, from November, that will no longer be possible. If Jetbrains decides, in 2016, to increase the license fee to $300 per year, or $500, then we will have 2 options: Pay it and continue to have access, or don't pay, and lose all access to the tools, despite the fact that we have already given you money. If I have a cashflow problem, I can no longer decide to stay with last year's version for a while, instead I lose access. I'm sure you know this, I'm sure everyone at JetBrains knows this.
  - s73v3r 11y ago
    The license seems to say that if you stop paying, you can still use the most recent version as of when your subscription expired. So technically you could subscribe for one month, get the software, and keep using it until you saw a version that was compelling enough to upgrade to.
    - anu_gupta 11y ago
      That's not how I'm reading it, and I'd be amazed if that was the case, because then, you literally could pay £6 and get PHPStorm to use forever.
      - s73v3r 11y ago
        That's according to a post earlier in the thread from the guy I presume is from JetBrains. It's also similar to the license Epic had for Unreal Engine, before they got rid of the monthly fee.
        anu_gupta 11y ago
        You seem to be conflating the perpetual licence, which is what we have currently and will stop being available in November with the new subscription. If I do not move to the subscription model, I can continue to use my current version of PHPStorm, in perpetuity. However, I cannot subscribe under the new terms, and keep using the software if I decide to stop subscribing. Earlier in this thread you suggested that we could subscribe for a month and keep using the software afterwards. This is incorrect. Once you stop subscribing, you lose the rights to use the software
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Aldo_MX 11y ago
  Peace of mind is a really important feature you are discarding with this model. Not every compelling feature is implemented with code.
crudbug 11y ago
Subscription based model is superior in maintaining constant cash flow.
- toyg 11y ago
  But it's a form of rent, with all that it implies.
- teacup50 11y ago
  Only because it's a coercive model, and bad for the people supplying the cash flow.

lol768 11y ago

One of the things I liked about the previous model was that I could continue using an older version of the software, assuming it met my needs and evaluate future planned features and future versions before deciding to purchase an upgrade or new license. If I don't renew, I don't get support and I can't use the new features in the new version - but I can still use the software I purchased in the state it was in. If I'm understanding correctly, there's no option not to upgrade and continue using an old version of the product under the new model - the instant you stop paying, the product can no longer be used (after the month has finished). Personally this makes me feel like I don't 'own' the software anymore - instead, I'm just renting it. I'm also interested to see if IntelliJ IDEA Ultimate will continue to offer the other language plugins (PHP, Python etc) that allows it to do what the other IDEs do under this pricing model. I'd have no problem with this pricing approach if it was available alongside the existing system - so developers who use many different languages can use the subscription service if they feel it offers better value for them. Developers who prefer the previous model can opt to continue renewing annually to receive support and updates. I'm somewhat surprised and disappointed to see JetBrains forcing everyone down this path once their existing licenses have expired.

gorohoroh 11y ago
If you have an existing perpetual license, you can use it infinitely, just as the license agreement stated when you purchased it. We do however offer a switch to the new model if you like it and if you're interested in new versions that your perpetual license doesn't cover. If you do switch to the new model, you pay as long as you need to use a tool, and you always get the latest version. IntelliJ Ultimate will continue to offer language plugins, nothing changes in this regard.
- lol768 11y ago
  > If you have an existing perpetual license, you can use it infinitely, just as the license agreement stated when you purchased it. My understanding of the agreement is that you can use the software infinitely with the version that was available on the last day of the subscription term. As languages and frameworks change, it seems inevitable that everyone who wants to continue working with the latest stable version will be forced to subscribe via the Toolbox (because the renewal of the perpetual license is no longer supported), at which point they no longer own the software they are paying for.

dump100 11y ago

if anyone from jetbrains here, in India it is showing prices using hindi (devanagari) numerals which are no longer in common use, even when text is in Hindi, most people will not even understand it. Would recommend to regular numerals.

caio1982 11y ago
Hey, that's quite funny if you consider these "numerals" were actually developed in India eons ago. That's full circle enough to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_s...
rdemmer 11y ago
Thanks for reporting this. We have taken note and will pass along to our web team.

shrugisor 11y ago

I'm actually quite upset about this. I love PyCharm and I've always upgraded to most recent major version because even though I didn't necessarily need all the new features, I wanted to support JetBrains for making such great software. So now I'm stuck using PyCharm 4.x forever unless I pay a monthly fee to upgrade. And if I stop paying I lose access to my IDE? Truly an awful way to treat loyal customers. I can only hope that JetBrains abandons this new SaaS model or has some plan to allow users to purchase either a perpetual license or a subscription a-la Microsoft Office. If not, then I hope Atom or Sublime Text get some robust debugging plugins for Python like PyCharm has.

thawkins 11y ago
I agree, im a cLion and a PhpStorm licensee, and this is a disaster. Im going to have to start moving back to netbeans. We where about to kit out our entire department with phpstorm but now its going to be really really hard to justify this. This is nothing about being more convient for customers, its about screwing more money out of people. I am very very disapointed.
- gorohoroh 11y ago
  For commercial PhpStorm licenses a rough comparison would as follows. Before November 2: First year: $199 a seat Each subsequent year: $129 a seat After November 2: First year and each subsequent year: $119-149 a seat (with/without a promotion available)
  - lol768 11y ago
    Except that before November 2nd a company could pay $199 once and never again until they felt the need to upgrade. Following November 2nd, a company has no choice but to cough up the yearly fee or the software stops working and the developers can't do any work without changing the software they use.
    - timv 11y ago
      cough up the yearly fee or the software stops working and the developers can't do any work Yup, and all it takes is for an invoice to get misplaced or delayed in your accounts payable team and development grinds to a halt.

fiveoak 11y ago

It's pretty cool to finally have a discount option to subscribe to all of the JetBrains products. When my existing IntelliJ license free upgrade period expires I'll probably subscribe to the "all products" option. That said, it's a bit upsetting they don't seem to offer corporate perpetual licenses anymore. It's a lot easier to justify the expense when it could be a one-time expense. Suddenly having your critical work tools stop working (for instance, during a budget freeze) is somewhat unacceptable.

gorohoroh 11y ago
Yes, the change applies to corporate licenses, too. As a bonus for them, there's a transparent model of discounts based on number of licenses and term of payment (https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/#commercial https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/#commercial) We're used to helping users of commercial licenses who are faced with delayed payments in their companies, and I'm sure we'll be doing this with the new model as well.

selleck 11y ago

Better buy Webstorm now so I can get it as a perpetual license. I can see October being a huge month where people buy perpetual copies of tools they were thinking about buying in the past.

mkaziz 11y ago

If they're interested in doing this for the customer's sake, they should offer the customer a choice. If they're ramming it down people's throats, then they're really just doing it for their wallets.

coldtea 11y ago

I'm already in 10 subscription services, from Dropbox and iCloud to Abobe, music plugins, etc. How much worse would it be in the future, when we'd regularly have to fork $500 per month or so (rent money in most of the world) just to keep using our software? The situation reminds me of this part from Ubik by Philip K. Dick: Back in the kitchen he fished in his various pockets for a dime, and, with it, started up the coffeepot. Sniffing the - to him - very unusual smell, he again consulted his watch, saw that fifteen minutes had passed; he therefore vigorously strode to the apt door, turned the knob and pulled on the release bolt. The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the door said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt.” In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. “You discover I’m right,” the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt’s money-gulping door. “I’ll sue you,” the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, “I’ve never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it.” A knock sounded on the door. “Hey, Joe, baby, it’s me, G. G. Ashwood. And I’ve got her right here with me. Open up.” “Put a nickel in the slot for me,” Joe said. “The mechanism seems to be jammed on my side.” A coin rattled down into the works of the door; it swung open and there stood G. G. Ashwood with a brilliant look on his face. It pulsed with sly intensity, an erratic, gleaming triumph as he propelled the girl forward and into the apt.

farmdog 11y ago
On top of the money going out periodically, it's about the cognitive load it places on the customers. I have enough decisions to make every day; additional services to consider adds the amount of time I need to think about writing off certain subscriptions from my taxes, whether or not I renew, time to make sure my credit card is up to date, check to make sure my subscription doesn't require when I'm on vacation without Internet and want to code, etc. A one-time purchase loads all of that into a single occurrence where I need that product instead of bringing it up at a calendar-determined interval. My company uses WebStorm regularly because it's a solid IDE for Linux; I've heard of Visual Studio Code running on Linux; have people found that comparable?

brianwawok 11y ago

I really really really hate renting software. On the flip side - IntelliJ comes out with a new version every single year, and if you don't upgrade you are kind of screwed (At least as someone who codes latest cut of Scala) So not a big change to my wallet, but it does make me sad a little.

redwards510 11y ago

I understand that people wouldn't like the idea of not "owning" their copy, but is this really that much different than what we're doing already? current model: purchase new upgraded version of resharper every year (or two). abandon old version. new model: subscribe to resharper. upgrade when new version comes out. abandon old version. Is anyone really using a copy of resharper 6 right now? and VS2010?

lol768 11y ago
Yes, I still use an old copy of ReSharper at home. I don't use C# often enough to justify paying every year and I'm quite content to sit on an older version of the IDE & its plugins because I rarely boot into Windows anyway.
wvenable 11y ago
Still using VS2010 although I'm in the works to move to VS2015 -- skipped 2012 and 2013 entirely. I also have phpStorm but I didn't upgrade this year as I'm not doing as much PHP development anymore. However, I still use it to make changes to old code bases.
bobcostas55 11y ago
The difference is that the new purchases provided a strong incentive to JetBrains to make their software better. If the new version doesn't add anything useful, people wouldn't upgrade. Now you have to keep paying whether they add features or not.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  OTOH, if the subscription price is substantially lower than the pre-subscription purchase price, JetBrains has to keep improving faster than the competition long enough to get you to keep buying the subscription for several cycles instead of switching to a competing option or they are losing money from going from outright purchase to subscription.
  - Aldo_MX 11y ago

acveilleux 11y ago

As someone who mostly uses PyCharm and doesn't do web work, I guess this will have no effect on me for quite a while. Almost all the new PyCharm features I've noticed in 4.5 have had to do with web frameworks, none of which I use.

ddorian43 11y ago

tldr: We learned that we can charge much more for our products and we're doing just that. Here are some useless tweets.

hoopism 11y ago

I am struggling to see how this benefits the consumer. I read that whole release wondering if they actually believed that this was some sort of reaction to consumer demand or if they just think people are incredibly ignorant. No thanks. Surprised I didn't see a tweet that read: "Dear JetBrains. I loved buying your product so much I want to do it EVERY month!"

snuxoll 11y ago
Personally, as a polygot developer who works a lot in both Visual Studio with ReSharper and IntelliJ, this is an overall cost savings for me and simplifies things a lot. Instead of paying my $99/yr to renew IntelliJ, and another $129/yr to upgrade ReSharper - I can switch to the $149/yr 'everything included` plan and get a couple tools I don't already have (CLion being a big one). If you're the kind of person who doesn't maintain their existing S&M subscription then it will end up costing you more, but typically this will break even for people that do regularly maintain them. EDIT: Am I honestly getting downvoted because I'm not hopping aboard the wold-is-ending-because-subscriptions-are-bad circlejerk? I expect this kind of behavior on Reddit, not HN. It's not like I'm telling anyone "you're wrong" for not liking the changes, but I certainly hope I'm allowed to state my opinion too.
- teacup50 11y ago
  This is a short-sighted view. JetBrains now controls pricing, and the relationship itself is coercive. This means that you have no control over pricing, and that JetBrains doesn't need to worry about whether you'll renew year-to-year if they don't produce upgrades that make your renewal worthwhile. Long-term mutually beneficial economic relationships are rarely built on top of coercive models that give one party such an enormous advantage.
  - hoopism 11y ago
    This is a very good explanation of why this is bad for consumers.
  - cscharenberg 11y ago

beagle3 11y ago

I can find no mention about what happens to the community edition. Will it still be available, or is it going to disappear?

gorohoroh 11y ago
IntelliJ IDEA Community Edition, dotPeek and all other free tools stay free as before. Nothing changes in this respect.

anu_gupta 11y ago

Odd that this is suddenly on the 3rd page of HN - has it been flagged or attracted some kind of penalty?

gorohoroh 11y ago
Probably by virtue of total karma lost by JetBrains reps here.
noarchy 11y ago
I was suspicious of this, too, as I am anytime a seemingly-popular article suddenly vanishes from the front page.

Stratoscope 11y ago

From the FAQ: > 9. Can I use my personal license on multiple machines? > You may install the license on more than one machine but it may be used on only one machine at a time. To run multiple installations simultaneously, each instance requires a separate license. https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb (#9 under License Types and Users) Will I still be able to run multiple instances of ReSharper on the same machine? This is pretty essential to my workflow. For example, I have three instances of VS2015 open at the moment: One for my Unity project, another for a C# plugin, and a third for the installer. ReSharper runs fine in all of them. I can also run these on my Windows machine while having IDEA open on my Mac. (Actually the Windows machine is a Parallels VM, but same difference.) Will this capability go away? That would be unfortunate.

hhariri 11y ago
Could you please link to the FAQ entry for this?
- Stratoscope 11y ago
  Good idea, thanks. I updated my comment above with the link.
cscharenberg 11y ago
This is a good question. I usually have multiple PyCharm instances running and have never had a problem. I never thought about it until my wife started up PyCharm on my other computer and I got a notice saying another computer on the network was using a license and one of us needed to quit. JetBrains needs to reassure us multiple instances are ok on same machine and across VMs. Will running the IDE in OS X and also a guest Linux VM look like multi-machine use? If so, that's really a bad flaw in licensing.
- gorohoroh 11y ago
  We're not changing anything in this regard: if it works now, it will work the same way with new subscription licenses. If you encounter a case when a setup like this doesn't work, please contact JetBrains and we'll look into resolving the problem.

tomku 11y ago

If you want to fix this and regain some of the respect that you've lost in the past few hours, here's my suggestion. Keep the subscription model. Set the non-discounted prices for a year's subscription at the same price level that perpetual license upgrades were. The monthly prices can be higher, maybe 20% more for a year billed monthly than annually. Offer a 10% grandfathered discount to apologize to your current customers for forcing them onto a subscription model. Don't offer any kind of promotional discount on the "all the Jetbrains" package deal - it's already underpriced. I think that this is a reasonable compromise that allows switching to a subscription model without screwing over either old or new customers. Additionally, be honest. Many of your customers and most of your users are developers. We understand the upsides and downsides of a subscription model from both perspectives. Trying to spin away those downsides will backfire and leave us feeling taken advantage of. You've spent many years building up all this developer goodwill, it would be a shame to lose it over something like this.

gorohoroh 11y ago
That's a great comment, thank you. Let me check how all the prices relate once again and come back to you.

endijs 11y ago

If this change is so beneficial to users - lets put it to the test. JetBrains - put up public voting (which you do not have control over) and let us vote on which licensing deal we like more: old one or new one. Then we can talk if this is really something that developers really want.

wvenable 11y ago
Honestly if the pricing was better and some of the smaller tier plans let me use more products, I might be good with it. But this is literally the same cost for less product unless I want to pay more to get everything.

mekael 11y ago

My department (for the most part) has a "no subscription" policy when it comes to most things, especially tools. I love using ReSharper and 0xDBE (possibly the number two application in my toolbox), but it will be hard to justify this to management. If you offered a perpetual license after 12 months, or kept both SAAS and the perceptual license(you could charge quite a bit more in this case) it would be excellent. Edit: If you charged me 10 bucks a month for 0xDBE I wouldnt be able to get it approved even on a good day. Charge us 500 a year then the check would be cut that afternoon.

TheLoneWolfling 11y ago

I do not "rent" software. Full stop.

slccsoccer28 11y ago

This came up earlier and I ended up writing a lettering to Jetbrians. If you are upset by this change, please let Jetbrains know! Customer input has helped companies reverse similar policies in the past. You can quickly customize and send it out here (this site has been a side project for me): https://www.sincerelyme.org/everything-else/jetbrains-subscription-based-model_i50 https://www.sincerelyme.org/everything-else/jetbrains-subscr... ------ It's also copied into the post below: Email at: busdev@jetbrains.com Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/JetBrains https://www.facebook.com/JetBrains More at: https://www.jetbrains.com/company/contacts/ https://www.jetbrains.com/company/contacts/ ---- Dear Jetbrains, I am writing to express my thorough disappointment with the decision for Jetbrains to switch to a subscription based model. While I understand the need for businesses to monetize, I feel that this monetization strategy is completely over looking the needs and desires of your historically loyal user base. I could understand this decision if your products were serviced-based or hosted (i.e. cloud) solutions, but as a stand-alone, desktop software this decision only serves to benefit one party. Not only are you questioning historically loyal users by continuously asking them to show their support for your product, you are literally devaluing your product by requiring me to repurchase it on a recurring basis. No longer do I have the option to purchase a high-value, life long, perpetual license for your product. I do not understand how Jetbrains can drag themselves to the ranks of often, lackluster subscription based software. I have long been a loyal and vocal advocate for Jetbrains software and customer service. Your software does make my job easier and I do enjoy using it. Your customer support and involvement with your loyal community has long been top notch. I often go out of my way to explain why I love using your products, like Webstorm and PHPStorm, and have convinced many people to switch to Jetbrains. After this decision, I have no desire to continue advocating your historically incredible software and intend to make it very clear to potential users of how you’ve decided to treat loyal users. This decision shows a lack of empathy for the community you have worked so hard to build and I am extremely concerned about your future considerations of myself and the rest of the community. Unless Jetbrains decides to amend this new policy with consideration for traditional, perpetual based licenses, I will no longer be purchasing new offerings. I will use the current version of software. When I feel they are no longer suitable for use, I will look for alternatives offering perpetual licenses or simply use a text editor. Again, your software does make my job easier and I do enjoy using it, but I want to make it clear that I do not need to you your software. There are plenty of acceptable alternative IDE's and, of course, I can always use a standard text editor. I hope Jetbrains can recognize the error of their ways and address this issue in response to the community. I want to continue enjoying your products and advocating for a historically incredible brand. Sincerely, {Your Name}

wildmXranat 11y ago

Dude - just no! Stop making me rent desktop tools which ought to be just there after I pay for them. I will not be upgrading PyCharm and PHPStorm annual after this. It will happily stay in the old version. Even though my cost of $49 that I paid last year is still the same in this pricing model, but instead of that price being the norm, it is qualified with a double asterix.- as in for existing users. So new users are getting shafted an extra 30 bones on top of what I pay. So in solidarity with new users, thanks but no thanks. Pretty bogus if you ask me.

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