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I admittedly don't take Uber too often. I have taken it maybe 10 times in my life. After the first time the "employee -vs- contractor" controversy broke out, I

I admittedly don't take Uber too often. I have taken it maybe 10 times in my life. After the first time the "employee -vs- contractor" controversy broke out, I made it a point to ask the drivers: do you like Uber? What do you like about it? And to a man (all were men) they said they loved the fact that they could set their own hours, take off for something else whenever they wanted, etc. Also, given the presence of cab companies, Lyft, etc., why does everyone think that Uber is "exploiting" the drivers?

InclinedPlane 11y ago
Yeah, Uber criticism seems to be an example of the old "perfect being the enemy of good" problem. Uber is extremely far away from being even remotely perfect, but the old system was built on a system of corruption, cruft, and abuse, it was mostly horrid for everyone except a tiny few. The fact that only now old taxi companies are scrambling to change and improve dramatically is a stunning indictment of the existing complacency and lack of competitive market forces.
zemvpferreira 11y ago
Asking service workers how much they like their employer is a less-than-perfect surveying tool. Why would they trash-talk Uber and risk getting a lower rating from you?
- marincounty 11y ago
  I have met very few people who will publicically critise their current employment, or current employment; no matter how terrible the job is? I guess it's denial? Or, just making the best if a bad situation? Or, just shutting up the nosey individual who needs to ask questions? If Uber decides to become a fair employer; their will still be a maryiad a shifts workers will be able to choose from. If they become a "Slumlord" employer, and abuse their employees, they will be just shooting themselfs in the foot? Meaning the caliper, and quality of employee will fall to fast food establishment levels. Let's be honest, the real reason we used Uber is because we knew a person who kinda acted like us would show up at our residence?
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Few people will publicly criticize their current employment, but many people will give a noncommittal or vaguely positive answer when asked how they like their job if they don't really like it that much. It's a case where "It's good" means it's probably bad, and "I love it because X Y and Z" means it's good. You can't take people's word for it, but you can still easily tell what they probably actually think.
- mikeash 11y ago
  Most people aren't good actors. When they spend 20 minutes talking about how great Uber is and how much taxi companies suck and how much happier they are now (as I've had) it's pretty safe to say it's not just an act to somehow get a better rating.
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  Why would anyone give a driver a lower rating if he talked crap about his employer?!?
- 1024core 11y ago
  So, I happened to take an Uber last night again. The driver was a guy who moves between cities: SF, LA (and one more, I think it was Sacramento). He was quite happy with the flexibility, that he could work Uber when he was between gigs. "Just turn on my app, start making money, turn it off when I'm done". No hours, no expectations. And he used to drive cabs; never again, he said. Another data point: my barber (who I've known for 5+ years) told me that he's started driving Uber on the side. Before the shop opens, and if he has no appointments in the morning, he just starts giving rides. He also was very happy about the flexibility. It's a way to supplement his income. I have yet to meet an Uber driver who feels "exploited" or taken advantage of. I really don't understand where this is coming from; my guess is it's the taxi industry? Which is ironical, since the taxi industry has been abusing drivers for decades with their medallion system.
henrikschroder 11y ago
I saw an article a few days ago that I just can't seem to find again, that pointed out that many low-wage employers like Wal-Mart or Starbucks use sophisticated scheduling software to schedule a large amount of part-time workers such that they never work more than 29 hours a week (which would make them entitled to full-stime benefits), while making sure that staffing meets demand. Schedule changes can be very short notice, and if you as an employee can't bend yourself to fit the the company's demands, they'll simply fire you. In contrast, the Uber model also mobilizes a large amount of low-wage workers, but never forces people to work when they don't want to, they simply use market incentives to make sure supply and demand gets balanced. And people who are in these jobs vastly prefer the Uber model, because they are real people with real schedules, and working when it suits them best gives them agency and control over their lives, which is worth much, much, more than an increase in minimum wage.
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  Found it: https://medium.com/the-wtf-economy/workers-in-a-world-of-continuous-partial-employment-4d7b53f18f96 https://medium.com/the-wtf-economy/workers-in-a-world-of-con... This must have been posted here?
  - henrikschroder 11y ago
    Indeed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10147912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10147912
- stvswn 11y ago
  It's almost as if businesses react to economic incentives in predictable ways. I'm starting to think that well-intentioned policies may sometimes backfire.
- tzs 11y ago
  Walmart part time workers generally get benefits [1]. Walmart did drop benefits for about 30k workers who were working under 30 hours a week, but it turns out that was actually to benefit those employees [2]. Walmart's health benefits (for both full-time and part-time employees) are in the form of cheap insurance that the employee can purchase. For those 30k workers, the cheap Walmart plan still cost considerably more than the subsidized plans they could get on the ACA exchange if they were not covered by an employer plan. [1] http://corporate.walmart.com/our-story/working-at-walmart/benefits http://corporate.walmart.com/our-story/working-at-walmart/be... [2] http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/10/08/3577404/walmart-part-time-coverage/ http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/10/08/3577404/walmart-p...
enraged_camel 11y ago
So you've taken Uber maybe 10 times in your life, and started asking the question after the employee-contractor thing broke out, which was recent. What does that make your sample size? 2? 3?

InclinedPlane 11y ago

Yeah, Uber criticism seems to be an example of the old "perfect being the enemy of good" problem. Uber is extremely far away from being even remotely perfect, but the old system was built on a system of corruption, cruft, and abuse, it was mostly horrid for everyone except a tiny few. The fact that only now old taxi companies are scrambling to change and improve dramatically is a stunning indictment of the existing complacency and lack of competitive market forces.

zemvpferreira 11y ago

Asking service workers how much they like their employer is a less-than-perfect surveying tool. Why would they trash-talk Uber and risk getting a lower rating from you?

marincounty 11y ago
I have met very few people who will publicically critise their current employment, or current employment; no matter how terrible the job is? I guess it's denial? Or, just making the best if a bad situation? Or, just shutting up the nosey individual who needs to ask questions? If Uber decides to become a fair employer; their will still be a maryiad a shifts workers will be able to choose from. If they become a "Slumlord" employer, and abuse their employees, they will be just shooting themselfs in the foot? Meaning the caliper, and quality of employee will fall to fast food establishment levels. Let's be honest, the real reason we used Uber is because we knew a person who kinda acted like us would show up at our residence?
- mikeash 11y ago
  Few people will publicly criticize their current employment, but many people will give a noncommittal or vaguely positive answer when asked how they like their job if they don't really like it that much. It's a case where "It's good" means it's probably bad, and "I love it because X Y and Z" means it's good. You can't take people's word for it, but you can still easily tell what they probably actually think.
mikeash 11y ago
Most people aren't good actors. When they spend 20 minutes talking about how great Uber is and how much taxi companies suck and how much happier they are now (as I've had) it's pretty safe to say it's not just an act to somehow get a better rating.
henrikschroder 11y ago
Why would anyone give a driver a lower rating if he talked crap about his employer?!?
1024core 11y ago
So, I happened to take an Uber last night again. The driver was a guy who moves between cities: SF, LA (and one more, I think it was Sacramento). He was quite happy with the flexibility, that he could work Uber when he was between gigs. "Just turn on my app, start making money, turn it off when I'm done". No hours, no expectations. And he used to drive cabs; never again, he said. Another data point: my barber (who I've known for 5+ years) told me that he's started driving Uber on the side. Before the shop opens, and if he has no appointments in the morning, he just starts giving rides. He also was very happy about the flexibility. It's a way to supplement his income. I have yet to meet an Uber driver who feels "exploited" or taken advantage of. I really don't understand where this is coming from; my guess is it's the taxi industry? Which is ironical, since the taxi industry has been abusing drivers for decades with their medallion system.

henrikschroder 11y ago

I saw an article a few days ago that I just can't seem to find again, that pointed out that many low-wage employers like Wal-Mart or Starbucks use sophisticated scheduling software to schedule a large amount of part-time workers such that they never work more than 29 hours a week (which would make them entitled to full-stime benefits), while making sure that staffing meets demand. Schedule changes can be very short notice, and if you as an employee can't bend yourself to fit the the company's demands, they'll simply fire you. In contrast, the Uber model also mobilizes a large amount of low-wage workers, but never forces people to work when they don't want to, they simply use market incentives to make sure supply and demand gets balanced. And people who are in these jobs vastly prefer the Uber model, because they are real people with real schedules, and working when it suits them best gives them agency and control over their lives, which is worth much, much, more than an increase in minimum wage.

henrikschroder 11y ago
Found it: https://medium.com/the-wtf-economy/workers-in-a-world-of-continuous-partial-employment-4d7b53f18f96 https://medium.com/the-wtf-economy/workers-in-a-world-of-con... This must have been posted here?
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  Indeed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10147912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10147912
stvswn 11y ago
It's almost as if businesses react to economic incentives in predictable ways. I'm starting to think that well-intentioned policies may sometimes backfire.
tzs 11y ago
Walmart part time workers generally get benefits [1]. Walmart did drop benefits for about 30k workers who were working under 30 hours a week, but it turns out that was actually to benefit those employees [2]. Walmart's health benefits (for both full-time and part-time employees) are in the form of cheap insurance that the employee can purchase. For those 30k workers, the cheap Walmart plan still cost considerably more than the subsidized plans they could get on the ACA exchange if they were not covered by an employer plan. [1] http://corporate.walmart.com/our-story/working-at-walmart/benefits http://corporate.walmart.com/our-story/working-at-walmart/be... [2] http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/10/08/3577404/walmart-part-time-coverage/ http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/10/08/3577404/walmart-p...

enraged_camel 11y ago

So you've taken Uber maybe 10 times in your life, and started asking the question after the employee-contractor thing broke out, which was recent. What does that make your sample size? 2? 3?