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Major part NOW, but are they intrinsic and inextricable? I don't think so. And I think on balance they are harmful, but I acknowledge that it'll take a long tim

Major part NOW, but are they intrinsic and inextricable? I don't think so. And I think on balance they are harmful, but I acknowledge that it'll take a long time to switch the economic dynamics, norms, etc. to a state where ads are rare. However, I think it's possible and I think it's overall preferable. Edit: I'll followup really quick on how ads can be harmful with regard to content making. Ad revenue scales based on eyeballs alone, that's the primary metric. To maximize profit that means you need the most eyeballs and the cheapest to produce content. That causes a pressure towards tabloid-style content, especially in journalism, which has become a very noticeable trend. When there's a more direct route for revenue from content consumers to producers there's more reward for producing higher value content. Having correctly aligned incentives is hugely valuable, and something that has been sorely missing in regard to a lot of content that was produced in the 20th century. It's always easy to look at major business changes as hugely scare and potentially calamitous but in the end it's extraordinarily unlikely that the fire to create art can be easily extinguished and the hunger to consume it won't result in sufficient expenditures to enable creators to support themselves. Overall I'd say a lot of what I've seen in regards to how new creators emerge and get on their feet and how that's changed since the dawn of the web-era has been almost exclusively beneficial.

johnward 11y ago
I agree that if users don't want something than it will have to die. I'm just not sure what we replace it with because I think economic drive behind the internet has been the major factor in the growth we've seen. Basically, if people weren't making money the internet wouldn't be anywhere near what we have today. I'm pretty sure we had a completely ad free internet at one point and it kind of sucked compared to the things we have today. Full disclaimer: I made a decent amount of money from advertising in the past. That doesn't mean I don't sympathize with users/consumers. The ad industry pushed too far and users are pushing back. Also I'd probably prefer ads on wikipedia versus the yearly begging but that's another topic.
- InclinedPlane 11y ago
  This is the post hoc fallacy though isn't it? It also neglects the many ways that advertising on the internet caused a LOT of serious problems, especially in the early days around the first dot-com bust. For some reason you seem to fall into the trap of thinking that ads vs "begging" are the only options, though that's not going to be true, isn't true now, and hasn't been true for literally decades. There are tons of ways to make money with a non-paywalled content site on the internet, as witnessed by... the many ways that people have been making money on such things for going on two decades.
  - johnward 11y ago
    > This is the post hoc fallacy though isn't it? Probably. Though I'm pretty sure the ability to make money (not necessarily form ads) was a driver.
- johnward 11y ago
  I was just using those models (ad vs beg) as examples. I've noted elsewhere that their are sites support content by selling products or services. I also agree with your original that we may not have found the replacement business model quite yet but it seems like we're trending away from advertising.

johnward 11y ago

I agree that if users don't want something than it will have to die. I'm just not sure what we replace it with because I think economic drive behind the internet has been the major factor in the growth we've seen. Basically, if people weren't making money the internet wouldn't be anywhere near what we have today. I'm pretty sure we had a completely ad free internet at one point and it kind of sucked compared to the things we have today. Full disclaimer: I made a decent amount of money from advertising in the past. That doesn't mean I don't sympathize with users/consumers. The ad industry pushed too far and users are pushing back. Also I'd probably prefer ads on wikipedia versus the yearly begging but that's another topic.

InclinedPlane 11y ago
This is the post hoc fallacy though isn't it? It also neglects the many ways that advertising on the internet caused a LOT of serious problems, especially in the early days around the first dot-com bust. For some reason you seem to fall into the trap of thinking that ads vs "begging" are the only options, though that's not going to be true, isn't true now, and hasn't been true for literally decades. There are tons of ways to make money with a non-paywalled content site on the internet, as witnessed by... the many ways that people have been making money on such things for going on two decades.
- johnward 11y ago
  > This is the post hoc fallacy though isn't it? Probably. Though I'm pretty sure the ability to make money (not necessarily form ads) was a driver.
johnward 11y ago
I was just using those models (ad vs beg) as examples. I've noted elsewhere that their are sites support content by selling products or services. I also agree with your original that we may not have found the replacement business model quite yet but it seems like we're trending away from advertising.