3 ms·

Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe? The concept of cul

by rmxt 11y ago

Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe? The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

jbssm 11y ago
Source is here for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sharia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh... 36% of Muslims living in UK believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death. But I'm sure you will find some way to nitpick out of this and tell me that these Muslims don't count. Right? Also, in case you intellectual honesty doesn't allow you to figure out, these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised since they actually lived for a long time (or were even born) in the West.
- rmxt 11y ago
  Take off the hate goggles and maybe you'll see that your sarcasm is actually true: "these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised" == "86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians" 86.4% sounds like a "great majority" (whatever that means), to me.
  - jbssm 11y ago
    Oh yes, they are westernised into 36% of them (the young ones, the ones that mostly were already born here) thinking that whoever leaves the religion of Islam should be killed. Geez, I seriously wonder what is your concept of NOT westernised? 50%, 70%, 100% of them believing in murder in the name of their religion or what? Please let us know if you actually have a number or if anything fits into your version of "westernised"
    - ashleyp 11y ago
      rmxt I don't think there's much point debating with this guy. He's not interested in learning and sharing his understanding. Only interested in proving he's right and I'm not even sure he knows what he's trying to prove right anymore. He's finding anything he can to backup his argument, not sharing sources that he used to formulate his opinions.
      - jbssm 11y ago
        Me and another commenter, already posted all the sources. It's you that are trying to see if they disappear. Here they are again in case your blindness allows you to see the facts against your incoherent opinions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sharia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh... http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuerkische-Migranten-hoffen-auf-muslimische-Mehrheit.html http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuer... http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi...
        rmxt 11y ago
        You've actually posted "sources" that disagree with your original claim. In case you've forgotten: "More than 50% of these refugees believe that whoever leaves the faith of Islam should suffer the death penalty and that adultery should be dealt with stoning to death." 1. You've posted nothing about refugees. The German article talks about Turkish immigrants in general. The Pew poll talks about Muslims in their native lands. Since when are these terms equivalent terms? 2. Even if we take if((Muslims in the UK == refugees) == TRUE), your Wikipedia source explicitly contradicts your original statement. Only 36% of a small age cohort believes that people that leave the faith of Islam should suffer a horrible fate. That number is even less for Muslims outside of that age bracket. Regardless, the group "Muslims in the UK" is not strictly equivalent to "refugees" no matter how much you wish it to be true. 3. Lastly, you disregard all of the information that suggests immigrants actually feel like they belong to their new homelands. Yes, as you've shown, some Muslims have beliefs that Westerners might consider vile (e.g., death penalty for conversion), but the fact of the matter is that in both the UK and Germany the majority of the Muslims polled actually feel like they are part of the country. I am not trying to make anything disappear: I've acknowledged and addressed every source you have posted, yet you cannot come up with anything more than "Muslims are scary" and "They don't assimilate" despite what actual research shows. Furthermore, you hypocritically suggest that we should single out Muslims for their religious beliefs, in the name of "protect[ing] the social freedom values we hold dear in the West." How can you support "freedom of religion," one of the foremost in the pantheon of social freedoms, while saying that you want to filter immigrants/refugees based on their religion? In case you missed it here [1]: "We conclude that Muslim migrants do not move to Western countries with rigidly fixed attitudes; instead, they gradually absorb much of the host culture, as assimilation theories suggest." I get the impression that you don't step outside your comfort zone very often, much less interact with people of different faiths or races in your daily life. Before you put words in my mouth, I never once suggest we tolerate murder or stoning. People who take action on beliefs like that should be vigorously persecuted. Until then, I don't think it's much different than asking a Christian, "Would a non-believer go to Hell when they die?" That is to say, it's a hypothetical question of faith, not one of action. Feel free to disagree with that opinion, but at least acknowledge that in doing so you're running afoul of the "social freedom values" that you so dearly want to protect. [1] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9248.2012.00951.x/abstract;jsessionid=37FB065EF9C38CFD45BC9B5985A5767C.f02t03?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage= http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9248.2012....
jk4930 11y ago
Turkish Muslims (the majority of Muslims in Germany) were polled on the following: 1. Islam is the only true religion: 72% YES 2. There should be a Muslim majority in Germany: 46% YES 3. Want only Muslims as neighbours: 62% YES > http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuerkische-Migranten-hoffen-auf-muslimische-Mehrheit.html http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuer...
- rmxt 11y ago
  Fair enough, they have strong religious beliefs. So do lots of people. Why does that mean Muslims shouldn't be allowed into a given country? Why should Islam be singled out? Also, apparently from the same survey: "Furthermore, the willingness of Turkish migrants and their descendents to integrate into German society remains high and is climbing. Whereas 70 percent said in 2010 that they want to "absolutely and without reservations integrate into German society," the new survey found that 78 percent of respondents agreed. Similarly, whereas 59 percent said two years ago that they wanted to belong to German society, 75 percent say so now. Fully 95 percent say that all children with Turkish backgrounds should go to day care facilities so as to learn German prior to entering school." http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/survey-turks-in-germany-willing-to-integrate-but-more-religious-a-850607.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/survey-turks-in-... Why does religiosity matter if the desire to integrate is there?
  - jbssm 11y ago
    Seriously, the complete hypocrisy of your comment is too big to actually be true. So, we are a bunch of xenophobes because we are concerned about people that clearly have social norms that are against our most basic principles of freedom are entering our countries. But when 62% of Muslims already living in Germany say they want to live only next to other Muslims then, you don't see a problem there and claim they are perfectly integrated. Seriously, you took hypocrisy to an all new level with that comment. If we say: We want to live only next to other people that share the basics of European culture = we are a bunch of racist pigs. If they say: We want to live only next to Muslims = nothing to see here, just perfectly integrated and westernised Muslims.

by rmxt 11y ago

jbssm 11y ago

Source is here for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sharia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh... 36% of Muslims living in UK believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death. But I'm sure you will find some way to nitpick out of this and tell me that these Muslims don't count. Right? Also, in case you intellectual honesty doesn't allow you to figure out, these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised since they actually lived for a long time (or were even born) in the West.

rmxt 11y ago
Take off the hate goggles and maybe you'll see that your sarcasm is actually true: "these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised" == "86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians" 86.4% sounds like a "great majority" (whatever that means), to me.
- jbssm 11y ago
  Oh yes, they are westernised into 36% of them (the young ones, the ones that mostly were already born here) thinking that whoever leaves the religion of Islam should be killed. Geez, I seriously wonder what is your concept of NOT westernised? 50%, 70%, 100% of them believing in murder in the name of their religion or what? Please let us know if you actually have a number or if anything fits into your version of "westernised"
  - ashleyp 11y ago
    rmxt I don't think there's much point debating with this guy. He's not interested in learning and sharing his understanding. Only interested in proving he's right and I'm not even sure he knows what he's trying to prove right anymore. He's finding anything he can to backup his argument, not sharing sources that he used to formulate his opinions.
    - jbssm 11y ago
      Me and another commenter, already posted all the sources. It's you that are trying to see if they disappear. Here they are again in case your blindness allows you to see the facts against your incoherent opinions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sharia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh... http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuerkische-Migranten-hoffen-auf-muslimische-Mehrheit.html http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuer... http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi...
      - rmxt 11y ago
        You've actually posted "sources" that disagree with your original claim. In case you've forgotten: "More than 50% of these refugees believe that whoever leaves the faith of Islam should suffer the death penalty and that adultery should be dealt with stoning to death." 1. You've posted nothing about refugees. The German article talks about Turkish immigrants in general. The Pew poll talks about Muslims in their native lands. Since when are these terms equivalent terms? 2. Even if we take if((Muslims in the UK == refugees) == TRUE), your Wikipedia source explicitly contradicts your original statement. Only 36% of a small age cohort believes that people that leave the faith of Islam should suffer a horrible fate. That number is even less for Muslims outside of that age bracket. Regardless, the group "Muslims in the UK" is not strictly equivalent to "refugees" no matter how much you wish it to be true. 3. Lastly, you disregard all of the information that suggests immigrants actually feel like they belong to their new homelands. Yes, as you've shown, some Muslims have beliefs that Westerners might consider vile (e.g., death penalty for conversion), but the fact of the matter is that in both the UK and Germany the majority of the Muslims polled actually feel like they are part of the country. I am not trying to make anything disappear: I've acknowledged and addressed every source you have posted, yet you cannot come up with anything more than "Muslims are scary" and "They don't assimilate" despite what actual research shows. Furthermore, you hypocritically suggest that we should single out Muslims for their religious beliefs, in the name of "protect[ing] the social freedom values we hold dear in the West." How can you support "freedom of religion," one of the foremost in the pantheon of social freedoms, while saying that you want to filter immigrants/refugees based on their religion? In case you missed it here [1]: "We conclude that Muslim migrants do not move to Western countries with rigidly fixed attitudes; instead, they gradually absorb much of the host culture, as assimilation theories suggest." I get the impression that you don't step outside your comfort zone very often, much less interact with people of different faiths or races in your daily life. Before you put words in my mouth, I never once suggest we tolerate murder or stoning. People who take action on beliefs like that should be vigorously persecuted. Until then, I don't think it's much different than asking a Christian, "Would a non-believer go to Hell when they die?" That is to say, it's a hypothetical question of faith, not one of action. Feel free to disagree with that opinion, but at least acknowledge that in doing so you're running afoul of the "social freedom values" that you so dearly want to protect. [1] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9248.2012.00951.x/abstract;jsessionid=37FB065EF9C38CFD45BC9B5985A5767C.f02t03?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage= http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9248.2012....

jk4930 11y ago

Turkish Muslims (the majority of Muslims in Germany) were polled on the following: 1. Islam is the only true religion: 72% YES 2. There should be a Muslim majority in Germany: 46% YES 3. Want only Muslims as neighbours: 62% YES > http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuerkische-Migranten-hoffen-auf-muslimische-Mehrheit.html http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuer...

rmxt 11y ago
Fair enough, they have strong religious beliefs. So do lots of people. Why does that mean Muslims shouldn't be allowed into a given country? Why should Islam be singled out? Also, apparently from the same survey: "Furthermore, the willingness of Turkish migrants and their descendents to integrate into German society remains high and is climbing. Whereas 70 percent said in 2010 that they want to "absolutely and without reservations integrate into German society," the new survey found that 78 percent of respondents agreed. Similarly, whereas 59 percent said two years ago that they wanted to belong to German society, 75 percent say so now. Fully 95 percent say that all children with Turkish backgrounds should go to day care facilities so as to learn German prior to entering school." http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/survey-turks-in-germany-willing-to-integrate-but-more-religious-a-850607.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/survey-turks-in-... Why does religiosity matter if the desire to integrate is there?
- jbssm 11y ago
  Seriously, the complete hypocrisy of your comment is too big to actually be true. So, we are a bunch of xenophobes because we are concerned about people that clearly have social norms that are against our most basic principles of freedom are entering our countries. But when 62% of Muslims already living in Germany say they want to live only next to other Muslims then, you don't see a problem there and claim they are perfectly integrated. Seriously, you took hypocrisy to an all new level with that comment. If we say: We want to live only next to other people that share the basics of European culture = we are a bunch of racist pigs. If they say: We want to live only next to Muslims = nothing to see here, just perfectly integrated and westernised Muslims.