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Interesting assumption, but it could be that the humanities are more engaging than STEM fields, so people are likely to convert to them, but not go the other wa

by tomlock 11y ago

Interesting assumption, but it could be that the humanities are more engaging than STEM fields, so people are likely to convert to them, but not go the other way. Maybe people are more likely to be unwillingly driven in STEM, but more likely to actively choose the humanities. All those silly assumptions explain the same behaviors. I'm sure that the situation is more complex than that.

justin_vanw 11y ago
It's not complex at all. There is a large group of people that try to major in STEM but find it too hard, or can't pass the math classes. This is often because they can't pass the tests. This is often despite substantial tutoring and serious effort, and multiple attempts to pass the class. The same person breezes through whichever humanities curriculum, and the 'Physics for Poets' class they have to take to satisfy their 'Quantitative Reasoning' requirement.
- tomlock 11y ago
  I can't say because I haven't seen the numbers on this. Even though I've got a philosophy degree I really need some solid quantification before I'll believe claims like that. For instance, do engineering graduates that do philosophy courses on average perform better in them than philosophy graduates? edit: Also what's your take on why Freshmen have diverged from high-school students in recent years? What changed?
  - irishcoffee 11y ago
    Anecdote N=1 I majored in comp. sci. minored in phil. I spent the majority of my time working through the technical classes, I kind of mailed it in for the philosophy classes, and got B's. I would have liked to spend more time 'trying' in the philosophy classes, but I really just didn't have it to spend. Some of them were really quite interesting. I guess this doesn't really answer your question, because I know people got A's in the classes I got B's in, but it might provide perspective into why an engineering major didn't ace all their 400 level phil. classes.
aidenn0 11y ago
I'd like to clear up at least one place where you and justin_vanw are talking past each other: At many engineering schools, the humanities are a joke. They are often filled with engineering dropouts and students who couldn't get accepted into a more prestigious liberal-arts school. Mix in the fact that the engineering schools often have a "wash out" course at the 100 level, while the liberal arts fields tend to not have this, and what you get is STEM students who take a few 100 level humanities classes, see nothing as rigorous as their 100 level engineering classes, and you get this perception. I also can't stress enough that the rigor of any department is directly related to the quality of students the department attracts. No college will allow a department to fail 90% of the students (impacted course tracks notwitstanding) so poor students leads to low standards. I went to Purdue, but have observed similar trends at other large engineering schools. I minored in philosophy, and anyone who tool philosophy at a liberal-arts school would likely not believe how low the standard for a B in the classes there was. Even comparing stories with Indiana University students, (also a state school, in the same state, but not an engineering school) the classes were a joke.
- tomlock 11y ago
  This makes a heap of sense! I think though that we are on the same page with this, that there are a bunch of complexities that it is very tempting to simplify away in explanations of the differences between the fields.

by tomlock 11y ago

justin_vanw 11y ago

It's not complex at all. There is a large group of people that try to major in STEM but find it too hard, or can't pass the math classes. This is often because they can't pass the tests. This is often despite substantial tutoring and serious effort, and multiple attempts to pass the class. The same person breezes through whichever humanities curriculum, and the 'Physics for Poets' class they have to take to satisfy their 'Quantitative Reasoning' requirement.

tomlock 11y ago
I can't say because I haven't seen the numbers on this. Even though I've got a philosophy degree I really need some solid quantification before I'll believe claims like that. For instance, do engineering graduates that do philosophy courses on average perform better in them than philosophy graduates? edit: Also what's your take on why Freshmen have diverged from high-school students in recent years? What changed?
- irishcoffee 11y ago
  Anecdote N=1 I majored in comp. sci. minored in phil. I spent the majority of my time working through the technical classes, I kind of mailed it in for the philosophy classes, and got B's. I would have liked to spend more time 'trying' in the philosophy classes, but I really just didn't have it to spend. Some of them were really quite interesting. I guess this doesn't really answer your question, because I know people got A's in the classes I got B's in, but it might provide perspective into why an engineering major didn't ace all their 400 level phil. classes.

aidenn0 11y ago

I'd like to clear up at least one place where you and justin_vanw are talking past each other: At many engineering schools, the humanities are a joke. They are often filled with engineering dropouts and students who couldn't get accepted into a more prestigious liberal-arts school. Mix in the fact that the engineering schools often have a "wash out" course at the 100 level, while the liberal arts fields tend to not have this, and what you get is STEM students who take a few 100 level humanities classes, see nothing as rigorous as their 100 level engineering classes, and you get this perception. I also can't stress enough that the rigor of any department is directly related to the quality of students the department attracts. No college will allow a department to fail 90% of the students (impacted course tracks notwitstanding) so poor students leads to low standards. I went to Purdue, but have observed similar trends at other large engineering schools. I minored in philosophy, and anyone who tool philosophy at a liberal-arts school would likely not believe how low the standard for a B in the classes there was. Even comparing stories with Indiana University students, (also a state school, in the same state, but not an engineering school) the classes were a joke.

tomlock 11y ago
This makes a heap of sense! I think though that we are on the same page with this, that there are a bunch of complexities that it is very tempting to simplify away in explanations of the differences between the fields.