5 ms·

Though the overall point may be correct, it weakens philg's argument to claim that a non-US pilot may become "Captain at Major Airline" after just 20 hours of p

by pc 17y ago

Though the overall point may be correct, it weakens philg's argument to claim that a non-US pilot may become "Captain at Major Airline" after just 20 hours of pilot-in-command time: that's just not true for any jurisdiction I'm aware of (the article claims it's "typical"), and I'd love to know of even one such case. (I'm an occasional pilot, with both US and "foreign" licenses.)

mechanical_fish 17y ago
Yes, even knowing nothing about the subject at hand this argument looked a wee bit exaggerated. If the situation were truly so astonishingly extreme, wouldn't the USA become a major net exporter of airline-pilot talent? Come to think of it, is the USA a major net exporter of airline-pilot talent? And if not, why not? Is the fix in, as it is with doctors and lawyers? (Getting a medical degree is one thing, moving to the USA is another, but getting licensed to practice medicine in the USA without a US medical degree is, alas, a third.) Or is the language and cultural barrier too high? (I was under the impression that international airline pilots all spoke at least enough English to communicate with air traffic control, which is to say: pretty decent English. You'd think that you could have a pretty decent life as an expatriate American airline pilot.) Or would it just cost more than folks are willing to pay?
- jrockway 17y ago
  Come to think of it, is the USA a major net exporter of airline-pilot talent? Dunno, but I have a hunch the answer is yes. (Not "net", but we probably do export.) I was very surprised when I was flying from Hong Kong to Shanghai on Dragonair a few months ago; both the captain and first officer were white guys with American accents. Not what I expected from an airline that only flies from mainland China to Hong Kong. (I also flew on Cathay Pacific on that trip, and the flight crew had British accents. They were not Chinese, which is what surprised me.) So I assume there are some pilots that choose to work for a foreign carrier rather than a US carrier. It makes sense, because English is an important skill, and the pay must be about the same. If my work life would become less stressful by moving to Hong Kong, I would gladly do it. I don't see why pilots would be any different.
  - yters 17y ago
    Alot of them probably come from the Air Force, and pilots in the Air Force basically just fly all the time.
- arch_hunter 17y ago
  I believe that America exports at least some pilots. I live in China, and a couple years ago there were rumors going around among the foreigners in the city I live in that a Chinese airline (I think it was China Southern) was considering moving all of its foreign pilots from Shanghai to this city in order to cut costs. I have also run into American pilots flying a Thai Airways plane (we were one of the last groups off of the plane, and then we stopped to rearrange who carried what luggage, and crew caught up with us in the hallway).
- JimmyL 17y ago
  Come to think of it, is the USA a major net exporter of airline-pilot talent? Coming only from personal observations, it sure seems like it's an exporter (I'm not sure about how major), but only to certain types of countries - specifically, prosperous non-European ones. Places where those pilots can live decent expatriate lifestyles: think China, Taiwan, Malaysia, UAE, Kuwait, etc. My experience is less varied on developing-world airlines, but I can't recall running into any Western pilots working for Kenya Airways or Royal Air Maroc (the two I have flown most recently). This makes sense, in some way - no matter what, Kenya Airways is unlikely to attract someone who spent a bunch of their time in Orlando to move to Nairobi, but with the right amount of money I could see those people moving to Shanghai for a few years to get some seniority and time in control of a larger plane than they would have if they had stayed with Continental. Interestingly, I "see" (hear) very few non-national Captains flying on Western European airlines. My theory is that all those countries have Air Forces of their own, and that their aviation sectors are small enough that they can rely on ex-military pilots for the majority of their piloting needs.
rubyrescue 17y ago
agreed. There is no way anyone is Captain at a major airline anywhere in the world after 270 hours... I'm a licensed private pilot in the US. I know commercial pilots from the states that fly for Major "foreign" airlines and i know the requirements were much greater.
- pgreenspun 17y ago
  My article did not assert that a pilot became captain at a foreign carrier after 270 hours. The article asserted that a person became captain at a foreign carrier after thousands of hours... nearly all as second in command. That is a very different background than someone who becomes captain at a major U.S. airline (who would have to have been pilot in command at a regional airline for 1000+ hours or pilot in command of a USAF airplane).
pgreenspun 17y ago
It depends on what you mean by PIC time. The pilot going through a professional flight training program will log all of the time after he gets his or her Private as PIC time, e.g., during instrument rating training. However, logging de jure PIC time while an instructor is in the aircraft is not the same as being the de facto PIC. In a country that doesn't have a regional airline system, there is really no other way than to create captains out of people who have spent nearly all of their flying hours as first officer (second in command).

by pc 17y ago

mechanical_fish 17y ago

Yes, even knowing nothing about the subject at hand this argument looked a wee bit exaggerated. If the situation were truly so astonishingly extreme, wouldn't the USA become a major net exporter of airline-pilot talent? Come to think of it, is the USA a major net exporter of airline-pilot talent? And if not, why not? Is the fix in, as it is with doctors and lawyers? (Getting a medical degree is one thing, moving to the USA is another, but getting licensed to practice medicine in the USA without a US medical degree is, alas, a third.) Or is the language and cultural barrier too high? (I was under the impression that international airline pilots all spoke at least enough English to communicate with air traffic control, which is to say: pretty decent English. You'd think that you could have a pretty decent life as an expatriate American airline pilot.) Or would it just cost more than folks are willing to pay?

jrockway 17y ago
Come to think of it, is the USA a major net exporter of airline-pilot talent? Dunno, but I have a hunch the answer is yes. (Not "net", but we probably do export.) I was very surprised when I was flying from Hong Kong to Shanghai on Dragonair a few months ago; both the captain and first officer were white guys with American accents. Not what I expected from an airline that only flies from mainland China to Hong Kong. (I also flew on Cathay Pacific on that trip, and the flight crew had British accents. They were not Chinese, which is what surprised me.) So I assume there are some pilots that choose to work for a foreign carrier rather than a US carrier. It makes sense, because English is an important skill, and the pay must be about the same. If my work life would become less stressful by moving to Hong Kong, I would gladly do it. I don't see why pilots would be any different.
- yters 17y ago
  Alot of them probably come from the Air Force, and pilots in the Air Force basically just fly all the time.
arch_hunter 17y ago
I believe that America exports at least some pilots. I live in China, and a couple years ago there were rumors going around among the foreigners in the city I live in that a Chinese airline (I think it was China Southern) was considering moving all of its foreign pilots from Shanghai to this city in order to cut costs. I have also run into American pilots flying a Thai Airways plane (we were one of the last groups off of the plane, and then we stopped to rearrange who carried what luggage, and crew caught up with us in the hallway).
JimmyL 17y ago
Come to think of it, is the USA a major net exporter of airline-pilot talent? Coming only from personal observations, it sure seems like it's an exporter (I'm not sure about how major), but only to certain types of countries - specifically, prosperous non-European ones. Places where those pilots can live decent expatriate lifestyles: think China, Taiwan, Malaysia, UAE, Kuwait, etc. My experience is less varied on developing-world airlines, but I can't recall running into any Western pilots working for Kenya Airways or Royal Air Maroc (the two I have flown most recently). This makes sense, in some way - no matter what, Kenya Airways is unlikely to attract someone who spent a bunch of their time in Orlando to move to Nairobi, but with the right amount of money I could see those people moving to Shanghai for a few years to get some seniority and time in control of a larger plane than they would have if they had stayed with Continental. Interestingly, I "see" (hear) very few non-national Captains flying on Western European airlines. My theory is that all those countries have Air Forces of their own, and that their aviation sectors are small enough that they can rely on ex-military pilots for the majority of their piloting needs.

rubyrescue 17y ago

agreed. There is no way anyone is Captain at a major airline anywhere in the world after 270 hours... I'm a licensed private pilot in the US. I know commercial pilots from the states that fly for Major "foreign" airlines and i know the requirements were much greater.

pgreenspun 17y ago
My article did not assert that a pilot became captain at a foreign carrier after 270 hours. The article asserted that a person became captain at a foreign carrier after thousands of hours... nearly all as second in command. That is a very different background than someone who becomes captain at a major U.S. airline (who would have to have been pilot in command at a regional airline for 1000+ hours or pilot in command of a USAF airplane).

pgreenspun 17y ago

It depends on what you mean by PIC time. The pilot going through a professional flight training program will log all of the time after he gets his or her Private as PIC time, e.g., during instrument rating training. However, logging de jure PIC time while an instructor is in the aircraft is not the same as being the de facto PIC. In a country that doesn't have a regional airline system, there is really no other way than to create captains out of people who have spent nearly all of their flying hours as first officer (second in command).