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"Hey, whatcha working on? Need any help?" is different then "act like you need his expert lessons in how to hack." It is a lot about tone and sincerity.

by comrh 11y ago

Kalium 11y ago
I hate to be the one to say this, but at several degrees of removal it's impossible for us to know the difference. People can and sometimes do interpret and re-interpret statements or behavior from intended meaning into something entirely different. Here's one such example I've personally witnessed: "Maybe you should consider that your life choices have consequences." "Is that a threat? Because I can go get the police right now."
- unblomphorizon 11y ago
  It's unfortunate how quickly some people resort to threats of violence. "The police" is just an abstraction layer. It's personal violence outsourced, and no less insidious.
  - Kalium 11y ago
    In this case, I think it may have been an attempt to assert power through a willful misinterpretation.
- ajross 11y ago
  > at several degrees of removal it's impossible for us to know the difference. Then maybe we should defer to the people directly involved. I mean, look. If these women say they feel uncomfortable at male-dominated hackerspaces, is it really such a stretch to believe that it's becuase they actually feel uncomfortable at male-dominated hackerspaces? There's no harm here. Let them hack where they want to. Our job as the dominant members of the subculture is just to shut up about it and not be thin-skinned nutjobs.
  - tomp 11y ago
    The problem is not that some women say that they're uncomfortable in existing hacker spaces. The problem is that they scream "misogyny" at the slightest offense. Maybe the guy was just an asshole, non-discriminately? Maybe he was trying to (awkwardly) seduce her (some people would say that's sexism as well, but in reality it's just being a heterosexual - it's more than probable that the same guy would try to seduce men if he was gay)?
    - mindstab 11y ago
      Hackspaces are supposed to be safe spaces to do work, you aren't there for flirting/socialzing/picking-a-mate. There, like work, it is inappropriate to be trying to "seduce" someone. Try a bar. To tell women that by being in public they have to accept endless random seduction attempts is a giant part of the problem. Also gay guys usually don't just hit on everyone because at least they usually have the grace to know when it's appropriate and when it's not and also when it might be reciprocal (wanted) and when not.
      - tomp 11y ago
        > Hackspaces are supposed to be safe spaces to do work, you aren't there for flirting/socialzing/picking-a-mate. There, like work, it is inappropriate to be trying to "seduce" someone. Well, then I imagine hack spaces a bit differently. For me, anything I do in my free time isn't work, it's fun. Socializing. And a natural part of socializing is forming relationships. Friendships, romantic relationships, ... In any case, I'd consider it much preferable to try and meet a soulmate at a common hobby, rather than at a bar. Applies to everyone, not just women, of course. > Also gay guys usually don't just hit on everyone because at least they usually have the grace to know when it's appropriate and when it's not and also when it might be reciprocal (wanted) and when not. That's quite a generalization, a pretty offensive at that. Obviously, straight guys are all scary and creepy, while gay guys are nice and tender and soft!
        comrh 11y ago
        Most women don't want to deal with your desire for a "romantic relationship" though.
- comrh 11y ago
  Yup that can happen. But I very much think that is the aberration and not the norm. The amount of creepy guys I've met in my life outweighs the people who want to be offended by everything. On the internet sometimes it feels pretty even though...
  - Kalium 11y ago
    Everyone lives in their own little bubble of bias. I've met more people who are addicted to outrage and are continually hunting for the next high than I have genuinely creepy people. Certainly, both exist. Point being, a person telling a story several times removed probably shouldn't be treated as The Source Of Revealed Truth. There's too much opportunity for reinterpretation and slanting, accidental or otherwise.

"Hey, whatcha working on? Need any help?" is different then "act like you need his expert lessons in how to hack." It is a lot about tone and sincerity.

by comrh 11y ago

"Hey, whatcha working on? Need any help?" is different then "act like you need his expert lessons in how to hack." It is a lot about tone and sincerity.

Kalium 11y ago

I hate to be the one to say this, but at several degrees of removal it's impossible for us to know the difference. People can and sometimes do interpret and re-interpret statements or behavior from intended meaning into something entirely different. Here's one such example I've personally witnessed: "Maybe you should consider that your life choices have consequences." "Is that a threat? Because I can go get the police right now."

unblomphorizon 11y ago
It's unfortunate how quickly some people resort to threats of violence. "The police" is just an abstraction layer. It's personal violence outsourced, and no less insidious.
- Kalium 11y ago
  In this case, I think it may have been an attempt to assert power through a willful misinterpretation.
ajross 11y ago
> at several degrees of removal it's impossible for us to know the difference. Then maybe we should defer to the people directly involved. I mean, look. If these women say they feel uncomfortable at male-dominated hackerspaces, is it really such a stretch to believe that it's becuase they actually feel uncomfortable at male-dominated hackerspaces? There's no harm here. Let them hack where they want to. Our job as the dominant members of the subculture is just to shut up about it and not be thin-skinned nutjobs.
- tomp 11y ago
  The problem is not that some women say that they're uncomfortable in existing hacker spaces. The problem is that they scream "misogyny" at the slightest offense. Maybe the guy was just an asshole, non-discriminately? Maybe he was trying to (awkwardly) seduce her (some people would say that's sexism as well, but in reality it's just being a heterosexual - it's more than probable that the same guy would try to seduce men if he was gay)?
  - mindstab 11y ago
    Hackspaces are supposed to be safe spaces to do work, you aren't there for flirting/socialzing/picking-a-mate. There, like work, it is inappropriate to be trying to "seduce" someone. Try a bar. To tell women that by being in public they have to accept endless random seduction attempts is a giant part of the problem. Also gay guys usually don't just hit on everyone because at least they usually have the grace to know when it's appropriate and when it's not and also when it might be reciprocal (wanted) and when not.
    - tomp 11y ago
      > Hackspaces are supposed to be safe spaces to do work, you aren't there for flirting/socialzing/picking-a-mate. There, like work, it is inappropriate to be trying to "seduce" someone. Well, then I imagine hack spaces a bit differently. For me, anything I do in my free time isn't work, it's fun. Socializing. And a natural part of socializing is forming relationships. Friendships, romantic relationships, ... In any case, I'd consider it much preferable to try and meet a soulmate at a common hobby, rather than at a bar. Applies to everyone, not just women, of course. > Also gay guys usually don't just hit on everyone because at least they usually have the grace to know when it's appropriate and when it's not and also when it might be reciprocal (wanted) and when not. That's quite a generalization, a pretty offensive at that. Obviously, straight guys are all scary and creepy, while gay guys are nice and tender and soft!
      - comrh 11y ago
        Most women don't want to deal with your desire for a "romantic relationship" though.
comrh 11y ago
Yup that can happen. But I very much think that is the aberration and not the norm. The amount of creepy guys I've met in my life outweighs the people who want to be offended by everything. On the internet sometimes it feels pretty even though...
- Kalium 11y ago
  Everyone lives in their own little bubble of bias. I've met more people who are addicted to outrage and are continually hunting for the next high than I have genuinely creepy people. Certainly, both exist. Point being, a person telling a story several times removed probably shouldn't be treated as The Source Of Revealed Truth. There's too much opportunity for reinterpretation and slanting, accidental or otherwise.