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> most hackerspaces tend to be full of dudes, or more specifically, white dudes. > Women and people of color join hackerspaces all the time ... “Our geek cred

by daenz 11y ago

> most hackerspaces tend to be full of dudes, or more specifically, white dudes. > Women and people of color join hackerspaces all the time ... “Our geek cred is constantly challenged or belittled ... some dude is going to come up to you and act like you need his expert lessons in how to hack.” If "white dudes" are becoming more aware that women and minorities are getting into tech and wanting to get into tech, many of them will want to help in any way they can, including asking if you need help. Saying that this is belittling is saying that there is malicious intent, which is alienating to anyone who wants to help spread their knowledge to new people.

comrh 11y ago
"Hey, whatcha working on? Need any help?" is different then "act like you need his expert lessons in how to hack." It is a lot about tone and sincerity.
- Kalium 11y ago
  I hate to be the one to say this, but at several degrees of removal it's impossible for us to know the difference. People can and sometimes do interpret and re-interpret statements or behavior from intended meaning into something entirely different. Here's one such example I've personally witnessed: "Maybe you should consider that your life choices have consequences." "Is that a threat? Because I can go get the police right now."
  - unblomphorizon 11y ago
    It's unfortunate how quickly some people resort to threats of violence. "The police" is just an abstraction layer. It's personal violence outsourced, and no less insidious.
    - Kalium 11y ago
      In this case, I think it may have been an attempt to assert power through a willful misinterpretation.
  - ajross 11y ago
    > at several degrees of removal it's impossible for us to know the difference. Then maybe we should defer to the people directly involved. I mean, look. If these women say they feel uncomfortable at male-dominated hackerspaces, is it really such a stretch to believe that it's becuase they actually feel uncomfortable at male-dominated hackerspaces? There's no harm here. Let them hack where they want to. Our job as the dominant members of the subculture is just to shut up about it and not be thin-skinned nutjobs.
    - tomp 11y ago
      The problem is not that some women say that they're uncomfortable in existing hacker spaces. The problem is that they scream "misogyny" at the slightest offense. Maybe the guy was just an asshole, non-discriminately? Maybe he was trying to (awkwardly) seduce her (some people would say that's sexism as well, but in reality it's just being a heterosexual - it's more than probable that the same guy would try to seduce men if he was gay)?
      - mindstab 11y ago
        Hackspaces are supposed to be safe spaces to do work, you aren't there for flirting/socialzing/picking-a-mate. There, like work, it is inappropriate to be trying to "seduce" someone. Try a bar. To tell women that by being in public they have to accept endless random seduction attempts is a giant part of the problem. Also gay guys usually don't just hit on everyone because at least they usually have the grace to know when it's appropriate and when it's not and also when it might be reciprocal (wanted) and when not.
        tomp 11y ago
        > Hackspaces are supposed to be safe spaces to do work, you aren't there for flirting/socialzing/picking-a-mate. There, like work, it is inappropriate to be trying to "seduce" someone. Well, then I imagine hack spaces a bit differently. For me, anything I do in my free time isn't work, it's fun. Socializing. And a natural part of socializing is forming relationships. Friendships, romantic relationships, ... In any case, I'd consider it much preferable to try and meet a soulmate at a common hobby, rather than at a bar. Applies to everyone, not just women, of course. > Also gay guys usually don't just hit on everyone because at least they usually have the grace to know when it's appropriate and when it's not and also when it might be reciprocal (wanted) and when not. That's quite a generalization, a pretty offensive at that. Obviously, straight guys are all scary and creepy, while gay guys are nice and tender and soft!
  - comrh 11y ago
    Yup that can happen. But I very much think that is the aberration and not the norm. The amount of creepy guys I've met in my life outweighs the people who want to be offended by everything. On the internet sometimes it feels pretty even though...
    - Kalium 11y ago
      Everyone lives in their own little bubble of bias. I've met more people who are addicted to outrage and are continually hunting for the next high than I have genuinely creepy people. Certainly, both exist. Point being, a person telling a story several times removed probably shouldn't be treated as The Source Of Revealed Truth. There's too much opportunity for reinterpretation and slanting, accidental or otherwise.
gress 11y ago
"Acting like you need his expert lessons" is not the same as "wanting to help in any way they can".
Jun8 11y ago
What does "white dude" even mean? I hate this label and always mark "other" in forms (to the extent that I can, some only have "white/black/asian/hispanic"). What does it mean to bring it up in the context of this article, other than merge all people with skin spectral signature falling in a cluster. But then there's this idea: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/16/how-fluid-is-racial-identity/race-and-racial-identity-are-social-constructs http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/16/how-fluid-is.... You can't have it both ways. I'm not "white", I'm not a "dude" and I hate to be labeled as such, probably as much as these people hate to be treated as clueless just because they are women. Unfortunately, it's a sad fact that people who are on the receiving end of abuse usually practice it themselves when they get a chance.
- Crito 11y ago
  "Dude" is used when the man has not made an attempt to signal to others that he is different from everybody else by altering his appearance or habits. For instance, if a man tells his barber "just a regular cut", he may be described as a "dude". On the other hand, if he shaves his hair into a mohawk and dyes it hot-pink, he loses his dudehood and becomes an individual. Whenever you hear somebody use the word "dude" in a tone that makes it sound disparaging, what they are basically telling you is "I am bothered by my perception that this man conforms."
  - Jun8 11y ago
    I have a good understanding what dude means, my question was a rhetorical one to try to deconstruct what the author meant by "white dude". How do you know a person you see for the first time at a hackerspace is a "dude"? If we accept you explanation of the disparaging use of dude, how does the woman in the hackerspace perceive what a given person conforms to? But why keep the discussion philosophical, after all a word's meaning is its use, right? As a simplistic experiment google "geek dude" and "geek" and look at the image results to try to figure out what the extra dude adds.
    - Crito 11y ago
      > how does the woman in the hackerspace perceive what a given person conforms to? Stereotypes, basically. Visuals/fashion play a very large role, as you can see in those google queries. How they interact with others also is a factor. In my experience, shy people are less likely to be considered "dudes", while extroverts are much more likely to get the label.
alukima 11y ago
I am a female programmer in my mid thirties. I've had careers before tech, I learn new things all the time. I have the ability to tell the difference when someone is treating me a certain way because I am a newbie or because I am a woman. It's incredibly insulting that every time this is brought up it's written off as women not understanding basic human interaction.
- yarou 11y ago
  If you actively look for something to be offended about, you will find it. I don't think it stems from ignorance so much as forced, willful ignorance to reinforce your own cognitive biases. It borders on delusion if you get offended by a friendly, non-threatening gesture in a cooperative environment.
  - alukima 11y ago
    Why would you think that women are looking for something to get offended about? If I was looking for something to get offended about I wouldn't hide behind male usernames on Stackoverflow, my local user groups, Hackernews (obviously not this account) and Github to avoid conflict. I just want to be a normal part of tech communities, on and offline. It's absurd that you can write off the large portion of women who say there's a problem because you don't want to examine you're own internal biases.
    - yarou 11y ago
      > Why would you think that women are looking for something to get offended about? Clearly, not all women are looking for something to be outraged about. However, there is a vocal minority that loudly takes offense at friendly gestures, like in this particular instance. That's what I take issue with. > If I was looking for something to get offended about I wouldn't hide behind male usernames on Stackoverflow, my local user groups, Hackernews (obviously not this account) and Github to avoid conflict. I just want to be a normal part of tech communities, on and offline. That's more of a consequence of the erosion of anonymity in the Internet, than you being a woman. > It's absurd that you can write off the large portion of women who say there's a problem because you don't want to examine you're own internal biases. Large portion of women according to whom? I'm not writing off anybody either, I'm asking people to critically examine a concept and judge for themselves. I think you ought to think for yourself a little bit more, onee-sama.

by daenz 11y ago

comrh 11y ago

"Hey, whatcha working on? Need any help?" is different then "act like you need his expert lessons in how to hack." It is a lot about tone and sincerity.

Kalium 11y ago
I hate to be the one to say this, but at several degrees of removal it's impossible for us to know the difference. People can and sometimes do interpret and re-interpret statements or behavior from intended meaning into something entirely different. Here's one such example I've personally witnessed: "Maybe you should consider that your life choices have consequences." "Is that a threat? Because I can go get the police right now."
- unblomphorizon 11y ago
  It's unfortunate how quickly some people resort to threats of violence. "The police" is just an abstraction layer. It's personal violence outsourced, and no less insidious.
  - Kalium 11y ago
    In this case, I think it may have been an attempt to assert power through a willful misinterpretation.
- ajross 11y ago
  > at several degrees of removal it's impossible for us to know the difference. Then maybe we should defer to the people directly involved. I mean, look. If these women say they feel uncomfortable at male-dominated hackerspaces, is it really such a stretch to believe that it's becuase they actually feel uncomfortable at male-dominated hackerspaces? There's no harm here. Let them hack where they want to. Our job as the dominant members of the subculture is just to shut up about it and not be thin-skinned nutjobs.
  - tomp 11y ago
    The problem is not that some women say that they're uncomfortable in existing hacker spaces. The problem is that they scream "misogyny" at the slightest offense. Maybe the guy was just an asshole, non-discriminately? Maybe he was trying to (awkwardly) seduce her (some people would say that's sexism as well, but in reality it's just being a heterosexual - it's more than probable that the same guy would try to seduce men if he was gay)?
    - mindstab 11y ago
      Hackspaces are supposed to be safe spaces to do work, you aren't there for flirting/socialzing/picking-a-mate. There, like work, it is inappropriate to be trying to "seduce" someone. Try a bar. To tell women that by being in public they have to accept endless random seduction attempts is a giant part of the problem. Also gay guys usually don't just hit on everyone because at least they usually have the grace to know when it's appropriate and when it's not and also when it might be reciprocal (wanted) and when not.
      - tomp 11y ago
        > Hackspaces are supposed to be safe spaces to do work, you aren't there for flirting/socialzing/picking-a-mate. There, like work, it is inappropriate to be trying to "seduce" someone. Well, then I imagine hack spaces a bit differently. For me, anything I do in my free time isn't work, it's fun. Socializing. And a natural part of socializing is forming relationships. Friendships, romantic relationships, ... In any case, I'd consider it much preferable to try and meet a soulmate at a common hobby, rather than at a bar. Applies to everyone, not just women, of course. > Also gay guys usually don't just hit on everyone because at least they usually have the grace to know when it's appropriate and when it's not and also when it might be reciprocal (wanted) and when not. That's quite a generalization, a pretty offensive at that. Obviously, straight guys are all scary and creepy, while gay guys are nice and tender and soft!
- comrh 11y ago
  Yup that can happen. But I very much think that is the aberration and not the norm. The amount of creepy guys I've met in my life outweighs the people who want to be offended by everything. On the internet sometimes it feels pretty even though...
  - Kalium 11y ago
    Everyone lives in their own little bubble of bias. I've met more people who are addicted to outrage and are continually hunting for the next high than I have genuinely creepy people. Certainly, both exist. Point being, a person telling a story several times removed probably shouldn't be treated as The Source Of Revealed Truth. There's too much opportunity for reinterpretation and slanting, accidental or otherwise.

gress 11y ago

"Acting like you need his expert lessons" is not the same as "wanting to help in any way they can".

Jun8 11y ago

What does "white dude" even mean? I hate this label and always mark "other" in forms (to the extent that I can, some only have "white/black/asian/hispanic"). What does it mean to bring it up in the context of this article, other than merge all people with skin spectral signature falling in a cluster. But then there's this idea: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/16/how-fluid-is-racial-identity/race-and-racial-identity-are-social-constructs http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/16/how-fluid-is.... You can't have it both ways. I'm not "white", I'm not a "dude" and I hate to be labeled as such, probably as much as these people hate to be treated as clueless just because they are women. Unfortunately, it's a sad fact that people who are on the receiving end of abuse usually practice it themselves when they get a chance.

Crito 11y ago
"Dude" is used when the man has not made an attempt to signal to others that he is different from everybody else by altering his appearance or habits. For instance, if a man tells his barber "just a regular cut", he may be described as a "dude". On the other hand, if he shaves his hair into a mohawk and dyes it hot-pink, he loses his dudehood and becomes an individual. Whenever you hear somebody use the word "dude" in a tone that makes it sound disparaging, what they are basically telling you is "I am bothered by my perception that this man conforms."
- Jun8 11y ago
  I have a good understanding what dude means, my question was a rhetorical one to try to deconstruct what the author meant by "white dude". How do you know a person you see for the first time at a hackerspace is a "dude"? If we accept you explanation of the disparaging use of dude, how does the woman in the hackerspace perceive what a given person conforms to? But why keep the discussion philosophical, after all a word's meaning is its use, right? As a simplistic experiment google "geek dude" and "geek" and look at the image results to try to figure out what the extra dude adds.
  - Crito 11y ago
    > how does the woman in the hackerspace perceive what a given person conforms to? Stereotypes, basically. Visuals/fashion play a very large role, as you can see in those google queries. How they interact with others also is a factor. In my experience, shy people are less likely to be considered "dudes", while extroverts are much more likely to get the label.

alukima 11y ago

I am a female programmer in my mid thirties. I've had careers before tech, I learn new things all the time. I have the ability to tell the difference when someone is treating me a certain way because I am a newbie or because I am a woman. It's incredibly insulting that every time this is brought up it's written off as women not understanding basic human interaction.

yarou 11y ago
If you actively look for something to be offended about, you will find it. I don't think it stems from ignorance so much as forced, willful ignorance to reinforce your own cognitive biases. It borders on delusion if you get offended by a friendly, non-threatening gesture in a cooperative environment.
- alukima 11y ago
  Why would you think that women are looking for something to get offended about? If I was looking for something to get offended about I wouldn't hide behind male usernames on Stackoverflow, my local user groups, Hackernews (obviously not this account) and Github to avoid conflict. I just want to be a normal part of tech communities, on and offline. It's absurd that you can write off the large portion of women who say there's a problem because you don't want to examine you're own internal biases.
  - yarou 11y ago
    > Why would you think that women are looking for something to get offended about? Clearly, not all women are looking for something to be outraged about. However, there is a vocal minority that loudly takes offense at friendly gestures, like in this particular instance. That's what I take issue with. > If I was looking for something to get offended about I wouldn't hide behind male usernames on Stackoverflow, my local user groups, Hackernews (obviously not this account) and Github to avoid conflict. I just want to be a normal part of tech communities, on and offline. That's more of a consequence of the erosion of anonymity in the Internet, than you being a woman. > It's absurd that you can write off the large portion of women who say there's a problem because you don't want to examine you're own internal biases. Large portion of women according to whom? I'm not writing off anybody either, I'm asking people to critically examine a concept and judge for themselves. I think you ought to think for yourself a little bit more, onee-sama.