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This is a big problem. If you think someone is stuck and you offer to help, you're being condescending or mansplaining but if you think that someone is just in

This is a big problem. If you think someone is stuck and you offer to help, you're being condescending or mansplaining but if you think that someone is just in their process and working something out so you leave them alone, you're being cliquish and not welcoming to the newcomer. Is the subculture supposed to change to fit the needs of the newbie or should the newbies be expected to learn to fit in to the subculture?

Kalium 11y ago
The prevailing answer right now is that the subculture needs to be infinitely accommodating to newbies. This... is perhaps not the wisest answer, as it is the kind of thing that tends to provoke a backlash. Certainly, telling people that their culture has no value whatsoever does not generally incline them to welcome you. The only viable solution I can see to the basic failure to communicate that you can describe is for either mind-reading machines to be deployed or for highly formalized channels to be adopted. The former are still being worked on and the latter just makes life harder for newbies, assuming they work at all.
seiji 11y ago
The only solution is to formalize everything. "Hello, may I speak further words to you?" "Hello, would you be comfortable if I help with your project? Also, I do not want my help to be construed as condescending or demeaning or belittling you, but I have been doing this for 20 years and you seem to be stuck on an introductory problem." Then you have both parties sign an official collaboration and non-harrassment document, get it notarized, then 6 to 12 days later you may begin working together.
- BadassFractal 11y ago
  Wonder how far this space is from having to deal with micro-aggressions, triggers and safe zones. Look, empathy and compassion are incredibly important, and we should require those in spaces that are possibly unfriendly to beginners, but there needs to be a line somewhere.
  - seiji 11y ago
    It's amusing how our mental model of people has become: anything potentially internally upsetting to a person will psychologically destroy them forever. Therefore, you must never say anything anybody (globally) could possibly have a negative reaction towards. Being sensitive and aware of others needs is great, but being punished because Joe cries when he hears the word Soufflé, and you didn't know that fact, is weird. On the other hand, once you know Joe is sensitive to the S word, and you continue harassing Joe with a daily Soufflé, then you are an asshat. Our future is on a trajectory to just be like the minions movie. The only word allowed will be banana, in deference to maintaining the internal psychological purity of all sentient humans.
    - LordKano 11y ago
      On the other hand, once you know Joe is sensitive to the S word, and you continue harassing Joe with a daily Soufflé, then you are an asshat. On the other-other hand if Joe is sensitive to the word Soufflé, maybe he shouldn't be hanging out in a French Restaurant.
  - meatysnapper 11y ago
    We need to invent a language that allows people to not offend anybody.
angersock 11y ago
The fact that they're stuck might be part of the fun. It's usually easiest, and frankly less intimidating/annoying, to follow a simple protocol: 1. Ask them if they have a second to chat (if no, leave them alone for a while). 2. Ask them what they're working on, and what they enjoy about it, and what is hard (if they don't want to talk about it, leave them alone for a while). 3. Ask them if they'd mind a suggestion about what they're trying (if they don't want a suggestion, leave them alone for a while). This may also be in the form of a leading question. It's really not hard to do that without falling into one of those two categories. Just ask quietly and politely, and respect their space. This isn't rocket science. EDIT: Also, some of my sibling commenters and even my parent comment have language that suggests some grumpiness over gender or feminism or whatever. If you're there to help with tech, none of that matters, so don't bring it up. Just ignore it and focus on the tech--doing anything else is, by definition, being distracting. Furthermore, complaining about it just makes you look silly.
- Kalium 11y ago
  Maybe it's just me, but "Do you have a second to chat?" sounds very little like "You look like you could use some help and I may be able to offer relevant expertise in the interests of addressing your apparent problem". From where I'm sitting, the former sounds like it's so unlikely to lead to the latter that it may not be worth engaging with.
  - angersock 11y ago
    That's precisely the point. :) Take at your statement, and pretend a frustrated/easily embarrassed/grumpy person is hearing it: "You look like you could use some help" --> "You look like you don't know what you're doing/you look frustrated" "I may be able to offer relevant expertise" --> "I assume that I both have something to offer and that you are having a problem of this particular way/shape/form" "in the interests of addressing your apparent problem" --> "whatever you're working on is clearly broken, and needs fixing" My formulation is intentionally very gentle and indirect, precisely to avoid any of the above misinterpretations. Working with people experienced in the field or who are known to be open to communication, obviously, we want to be more direct; for a novice, or for somebody who is looking for any excuse to take offense at what you're saying (perhaps because they're frustrated at their work and want to vent at something), it is useful to take a lighter touch.
gaius 11y ago
Is the subculture supposed to change to fit the needs of the newbie or should the newbies be expected to learn to fit in to the subculture? What do other subcultures do? What is a culture of it has no strong identity? Why would anyone want to join it?

Kalium 11y ago

The prevailing answer right now is that the subculture needs to be infinitely accommodating to newbies. This... is perhaps not the wisest answer, as it is the kind of thing that tends to provoke a backlash. Certainly, telling people that their culture has no value whatsoever does not generally incline them to welcome you. The only viable solution I can see to the basic failure to communicate that you can describe is for either mind-reading machines to be deployed or for highly formalized channels to be adopted. The former are still being worked on and the latter just makes life harder for newbies, assuming they work at all.

seiji 11y ago

The only solution is to formalize everything. "Hello, may I speak further words to you?" "Hello, would you be comfortable if I help with your project? Also, I do not want my help to be construed as condescending or demeaning or belittling you, but I have been doing this for 20 years and you seem to be stuck on an introductory problem." Then you have both parties sign an official collaboration and non-harrassment document, get it notarized, then 6 to 12 days later you may begin working together.

BadassFractal 11y ago
Wonder how far this space is from having to deal with micro-aggressions, triggers and safe zones. Look, empathy and compassion are incredibly important, and we should require those in spaces that are possibly unfriendly to beginners, but there needs to be a line somewhere.
- seiji 11y ago
  It's amusing how our mental model of people has become: anything potentially internally upsetting to a person will psychologically destroy them forever. Therefore, you must never say anything anybody (globally) could possibly have a negative reaction towards. Being sensitive and aware of others needs is great, but being punished because Joe cries when he hears the word Soufflé, and you didn't know that fact, is weird. On the other hand, once you know Joe is sensitive to the S word, and you continue harassing Joe with a daily Soufflé, then you are an asshat. Our future is on a trajectory to just be like the minions movie. The only word allowed will be banana, in deference to maintaining the internal psychological purity of all sentient humans.
  - LordKano 11y ago
    On the other hand, once you know Joe is sensitive to the S word, and you continue harassing Joe with a daily Soufflé, then you are an asshat. On the other-other hand if Joe is sensitive to the word Soufflé, maybe he shouldn't be hanging out in a French Restaurant.
- meatysnapper 11y ago
  We need to invent a language that allows people to not offend anybody.

angersock 11y ago

The fact that they're stuck might be part of the fun. It's usually easiest, and frankly less intimidating/annoying, to follow a simple protocol: 1. Ask them if they have a second to chat (if no, leave them alone for a while). 2. Ask them what they're working on, and what they enjoy about it, and what is hard (if they don't want to talk about it, leave them alone for a while). 3. Ask them if they'd mind a suggestion about what they're trying (if they don't want a suggestion, leave them alone for a while). This may also be in the form of a leading question. It's really not hard to do that without falling into one of those two categories. Just ask quietly and politely, and respect their space. This isn't rocket science. EDIT: Also, some of my sibling commenters and even my parent comment have language that suggests some grumpiness over gender or feminism or whatever. If you're there to help with tech, none of that matters, so don't bring it up. Just ignore it and focus on the tech--doing anything else is, by definition, being distracting. Furthermore, complaining about it just makes you look silly.

Kalium 11y ago
Maybe it's just me, but "Do you have a second to chat?" sounds very little like "You look like you could use some help and I may be able to offer relevant expertise in the interests of addressing your apparent problem". From where I'm sitting, the former sounds like it's so unlikely to lead to the latter that it may not be worth engaging with.
- angersock 11y ago
  That's precisely the point. :) Take at your statement, and pretend a frustrated/easily embarrassed/grumpy person is hearing it: "You look like you could use some help" --> "You look like you don't know what you're doing/you look frustrated" "I may be able to offer relevant expertise" --> "I assume that I both have something to offer and that you are having a problem of this particular way/shape/form" "in the interests of addressing your apparent problem" --> "whatever you're working on is clearly broken, and needs fixing" My formulation is intentionally very gentle and indirect, precisely to avoid any of the above misinterpretations. Working with people experienced in the field or who are known to be open to communication, obviously, we want to be more direct; for a novice, or for somebody who is looking for any excuse to take offense at what you're saying (perhaps because they're frustrated at their work and want to vent at something), it is useful to take a lighter touch.

gaius 11y ago

Is the subculture supposed to change to fit the needs of the newbie or should the newbies be expected to learn to fit in to the subculture? What do other subcultures do? What is a culture of it has no strong identity? Why would anyone want to join it?