4 ms·

Part of the problem is the "Debt to Society" crap. People who violate the law do not owe a debt to society, they owe a debt to their victim(s) and no one else.

Part of the problem is the "Debt to Society" crap. People who violate the law do not owe a debt to society, they owe a debt to their victim(s) and no one else. This "debt to society" was invented in order to justify the creation of 1000's of victimless "crimes" It should be very simple... No Victim, No Crime.

Joky 11y ago
To be sure I understand you: you mean we can't prevent people from bringing an AK47 in school, as long as they don't shoot anyone? And one can drive as fast a she wants as long as there is no accident? One can sell outdated food as long as no client gets sick?
- the_ancient 11y ago
  >>>you mean we can't prevent people from bringing an AK47 in school, as long as they don't shoot anyone? As a matter of General Law, no. However if the property owner, in this case the school board, chooses on their own to disallow guns on their property then a person violating that would be guilty of criminal trespass. This is true for a Starbucks, Walmart, your personal home or any other property. That being said the issue gets a little more tricky when it comes to government run property, with government run property I tend to come down on what I think is a reasonable position of if you are not required by law to be there then the individual government agencies can restrict gun possession provided there is not a superior law preventing that.. an example would be many State governments preempt local parks depts from passing rules prohibiting carry in a public park. >>>And one can drive as fast a she wants as long as there is no accident? Generally speaking I believe in enforcement of Reckless Driving Laws and less on arbitrarily defined laws. For the most part speed limits are less about safety and more about revenue generation for local government. Even under todays law if you are driving the speed limit and a cops believes that is unsafe for the road conditions you can be ticketed and even arrested. >>>One can sell outdated food as long as no client gets sick? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8xwLWb0lLY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8xwLWb0lLY Relevant Part at ~9:35
  - phkahler 11y ago
    >> However if the property owner, in this case the school board, chooses on their own to disallow guns on their property then a person violating that would be guilty of criminal trespass. But who is the victim then? What was the damage? How does that compare to the case where they didn't make that rule?
    - the_ancient 11y ago
      The property owner is the victim. Property owners have the right to deny entry/use of their property for any reason or no reason at all. They can say "No one wearing blue shirts", or "No entry after 5pm" or any other rule they want to impose, if you violate that you have violated their property rights.
superuser2 11y ago
I don't think this works for you. Most "victimless crimes" have victims, you just don't believe they should count as victims, or the punishment isn't proportional. I suppose you could say not every instance actually has a victim, just some of them, but then should I get to walk if I shoot at you and miss? Copyright: IP owners who lose money, everyone who no longer benefits from new content because making it is economically unsustainable. Regulation: consumers who buy defective and dangerous products (particularly drugs), people who drink contaminated water and breathe contaminated air, people whose radio electronics won't work anymore because some asshole is jamming them, people whose retirement accounts evaporate on irresponsible trades or investment in fraudulent businesses, people who become suddenly homeless on the whims of their landlords, people who get hit by speeding cars, drunk drivers, cars without working brakes, cars that don't properly signal their presence and intentions. War on Drugs: people whose friends and family members become unreliable and/or dead because of their addictions. Tax fraud: people whose economic and medical situations get worse when government is underfunded.
- the_ancient 11y ago
  >>>Copyright: IP owners who lose money, everyone who no longer benefits from new content because making it is economically unsustainable. Setting aside the fact that I do not believe in the concept of IP. To the extent that the government grants such a privilege, there is a victim, the "owner" of the intellectual privilege. That person can raise their hand and say "I am a victim of Infringement on my government granted intellectual privilege" >>>Regulation: consumers who buy defective and dangerous products (particularly drugs), people who drink contaminated water and breathe contaminated air, people whose radio electronics won't work anymore because some asshole is jamming them, people whose retirement accounts evaporate on irresponsible trades or investment in fraudulent businesses, people who become suddenly homeless on the whims of their landlords, people who get hit by speeding cars, drunk drivers, cars without working brakes, cars that don't properly signal their presence and intentions. All of these are victims to some extent, I do not think you understand what the term victim means in this context. One does not have to be physically harmed to be a victim, you can be a victim of fraud, theft, negligence, these are all victims. >>>War on Drugs: people whose friends and family members become unreliable and/or dead because of their addictions. A person using drugs of their own free will can not be classified as a Victim, it is tragic yes but so is suicided, or countless other things. Family members are not being "victimized" by that. Further arresting a Drug abuser has been objectively proven to be about the worst thing you can do for them, and a sure fire way to turn a drug user into an abuser is to ruin their lives with criminal records and penalties. No Families are not "victims" when a family member uses drugs, any more than they are "victims" when a family member makes any other life choice that is poor. >>>Tax fraud: people whose economic and medical situations get worse when government is underfunded Setting aside the fact that I believe taxation to be theft, Taxation produces victims every day, every single taxpayer is a victim of unethical and immoral theft by government... Setting that aside no one is entitled to other peoples money, if a government program is underfunded that does not make a victim.
fsloth 11y ago
I fail to see what that has to do with a modern justice system. Crime can be personal, but law and justice are statistical, bureaucratic instruments that target societies, not individuals. They only produce as an accidental external factor occasional catharsis for the victim.

Joky 11y ago

To be sure I understand you: you mean we can't prevent people from bringing an AK47 in school, as long as they don't shoot anyone? And one can drive as fast a she wants as long as there is no accident? One can sell outdated food as long as no client gets sick?

the_ancient 11y ago
>>>you mean we can't prevent people from bringing an AK47 in school, as long as they don't shoot anyone? As a matter of General Law, no. However if the property owner, in this case the school board, chooses on their own to disallow guns on their property then a person violating that would be guilty of criminal trespass. This is true for a Starbucks, Walmart, your personal home or any other property. That being said the issue gets a little more tricky when it comes to government run property, with government run property I tend to come down on what I think is a reasonable position of if you are not required by law to be there then the individual government agencies can restrict gun possession provided there is not a superior law preventing that.. an example would be many State governments preempt local parks depts from passing rules prohibiting carry in a public park. >>>And one can drive as fast a she wants as long as there is no accident? Generally speaking I believe in enforcement of Reckless Driving Laws and less on arbitrarily defined laws. For the most part speed limits are less about safety and more about revenue generation for local government. Even under todays law if you are driving the speed limit and a cops believes that is unsafe for the road conditions you can be ticketed and even arrested. >>>One can sell outdated food as long as no client gets sick? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8xwLWb0lLY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8xwLWb0lLY Relevant Part at ~9:35
- phkahler 11y ago
  >> However if the property owner, in this case the school board, chooses on their own to disallow guns on their property then a person violating that would be guilty of criminal trespass. But who is the victim then? What was the damage? How does that compare to the case where they didn't make that rule?
  - the_ancient 11y ago
    The property owner is the victim. Property owners have the right to deny entry/use of their property for any reason or no reason at all. They can say "No one wearing blue shirts", or "No entry after 5pm" or any other rule they want to impose, if you violate that you have violated their property rights.

superuser2 11y ago

I don't think this works for you. Most "victimless crimes" have victims, you just don't believe they should count as victims, or the punishment isn't proportional. I suppose you could say not every instance actually has a victim, just some of them, but then should I get to walk if I shoot at you and miss? Copyright: IP owners who lose money, everyone who no longer benefits from new content because making it is economically unsustainable. Regulation: consumers who buy defective and dangerous products (particularly drugs), people who drink contaminated water and breathe contaminated air, people whose radio electronics won't work anymore because some asshole is jamming them, people whose retirement accounts evaporate on irresponsible trades or investment in fraudulent businesses, people who become suddenly homeless on the whims of their landlords, people who get hit by speeding cars, drunk drivers, cars without working brakes, cars that don't properly signal their presence and intentions. War on Drugs: people whose friends and family members become unreliable and/or dead because of their addictions. Tax fraud: people whose economic and medical situations get worse when government is underfunded.

the_ancient 11y ago
>>>Copyright: IP owners who lose money, everyone who no longer benefits from new content because making it is economically unsustainable. Setting aside the fact that I do not believe in the concept of IP. To the extent that the government grants such a privilege, there is a victim, the "owner" of the intellectual privilege. That person can raise their hand and say "I am a victim of Infringement on my government granted intellectual privilege" >>>Regulation: consumers who buy defective and dangerous products (particularly drugs), people who drink contaminated water and breathe contaminated air, people whose radio electronics won't work anymore because some asshole is jamming them, people whose retirement accounts evaporate on irresponsible trades or investment in fraudulent businesses, people who become suddenly homeless on the whims of their landlords, people who get hit by speeding cars, drunk drivers, cars without working brakes, cars that don't properly signal their presence and intentions. All of these are victims to some extent, I do not think you understand what the term victim means in this context. One does not have to be physically harmed to be a victim, you can be a victim of fraud, theft, negligence, these are all victims. >>>War on Drugs: people whose friends and family members become unreliable and/or dead because of their addictions. A person using drugs of their own free will can not be classified as a Victim, it is tragic yes but so is suicided, or countless other things. Family members are not being "victimized" by that. Further arresting a Drug abuser has been objectively proven to be about the worst thing you can do for them, and a sure fire way to turn a drug user into an abuser is to ruin their lives with criminal records and penalties. No Families are not "victims" when a family member uses drugs, any more than they are "victims" when a family member makes any other life choice that is poor. >>>Tax fraud: people whose economic and medical situations get worse when government is underfunded Setting aside the fact that I believe taxation to be theft, Taxation produces victims every day, every single taxpayer is a victim of unethical and immoral theft by government... Setting that aside no one is entitled to other peoples money, if a government program is underfunded that does not make a victim.

fsloth 11y ago

I fail to see what that has to do with a modern justice system. Crime can be personal, but law and justice are statistical, bureaucratic instruments that target societies, not individuals. They only produce as an accidental external factor occasional catharsis for the victim.