4 ms·

Well, they had due process, since that's how one becomes a felon in the first place. But I suspect a blanket ban on being able to earn a living in a particular

Well, they had due process, since that's how one becomes a felon in the first place. But I suspect a blanket ban on being able to earn a living in a particular region will be found cruel and unusual. Plus as a purely practical matter, banning former criminals from making a legal living seems like a pretty good way to ensure they continue to commit crimes.

Kinnard 11y ago
How do you know they had due process? Because they had a trial? Are you under the impression that that actually guarantees due process in this country?
- dredmorbius 11y ago
  A grand jury and trial-by-jury are the Constitutional basis of due process, modulo legal gloss. But piling on additional penalties, ex-post-facto, without hearing, isn't due process. That's the substance of the dispute here.
  - Kinnard 11y ago
    You can have a trial-by-jury and not have due process: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/17/us/politics/exclusion-of-blacks-from-juries-raises-renewed-scrutiny.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/17/us/politics/exclusion-of-b...
    - dredmorbius 11y ago
      Hence "modulo legal gloss". Which includes such elements as effective counsel, unbiased jury selection, proper procedure, evidentiary rules, etc. Now let's look at your link.... Yeah. Biased jury selection. The Sixth Amendment lays out most of what comprises due process: the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence. Also Art III Sec 2: The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment; shall be by Jury... And again, the Virginia statute clearly fails XIV: nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...
russell_h 11y ago
Ironically, this would probably have been an unconstitutional violation of the business's right to enter into a contract according to early 1900s doctrine (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_contract https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_contract). That doctrine was reversed in the 1930s to permit states to set a minimum wage, but granting states greater authority to regulate contracts cuts both ways.
- ubernostrum 11y ago
  Well, that "doctrine" was largely based on deciding that the 14th Amendment had nothing to do with ensuring equal rights for former slaves and their children, but rather was enacted to turn the US into libertarian paradise. See Holmes' famous dissent in Lochner in which he said "The Fourteenth Amendment does not enact Mr. Herbert Spencer's Social Statics."
tehwebguy 11y ago
> Plus as a purely practical matter, banning former criminals from making a legal living seems like a pretty good way to ensure they continue to commit crimes. This county wants ex-cons back in prison or in another state.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  Or, just in another county. ex-con NIMBYism is far more politically popular than environmental NIMBYism.

Kinnard 11y ago

How do you know they had due process? Because they had a trial? Are you under the impression that that actually guarantees due process in this country?

dredmorbius 11y ago
A grand jury and trial-by-jury are the Constitutional basis of due process, modulo legal gloss. But piling on additional penalties, ex-post-facto, without hearing, isn't due process. That's the substance of the dispute here.
- Kinnard 11y ago
  You can have a trial-by-jury and not have due process: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/17/us/politics/exclusion-of-blacks-from-juries-raises-renewed-scrutiny.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/17/us/politics/exclusion-of-b...
  - dredmorbius 11y ago
    Hence "modulo legal gloss". Which includes such elements as effective counsel, unbiased jury selection, proper procedure, evidentiary rules, etc. Now let's look at your link.... Yeah. Biased jury selection. The Sixth Amendment lays out most of what comprises due process: the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence. Also Art III Sec 2: The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment; shall be by Jury... And again, the Virginia statute clearly fails XIV: nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...

russell_h 11y ago

Ironically, this would probably have been an unconstitutional violation of the business's right to enter into a contract according to early 1900s doctrine (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_contract https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_contract). That doctrine was reversed in the 1930s to permit states to set a minimum wage, but granting states greater authority to regulate contracts cuts both ways.

ubernostrum 11y ago
Well, that "doctrine" was largely based on deciding that the 14th Amendment had nothing to do with ensuring equal rights for former slaves and their children, but rather was enacted to turn the US into libertarian paradise. See Holmes' famous dissent in Lochner in which he said "The Fourteenth Amendment does not enact Mr. Herbert Spencer's Social Statics."

tehwebguy 11y ago

> Plus as a purely practical matter, banning former criminals from making a legal living seems like a pretty good way to ensure they continue to commit crimes. This county wants ex-cons back in prison or in another state.

dragonwriter 11y ago
Or, just in another county. ex-con NIMBYism is far more politically popular than environmental NIMBYism.