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If it seems to you that T-Mobile should not be able to tell you how you use your device, then it seems to me that you should not sign a contract granting T-Mobi

by chc 11y ago

If it seems to you that T-Mobile should not be able to tell you how you use your device, then it seems to me that you should not sign a contract granting T-Mobile that permission.

drivingmenuts 11y ago
The only real choice between vendors is based on price and reliability, since all of them tell you what you can and cannot do with your hardware. The only other option is to do without and that's just not a realisitic proposition anymore. It might work for Stallman, but not for me.
- chc 11y ago
  I agree that there isn't anybody offering completely indiscriminate mobile data for unlimited devices and unlimited users for $80 a month. But the fact that I want a Tesla Model S for $300 and nobody in the market is offering such a thing doesn't mean I can force an existing vendor to provide me with a $100,000 car for $300. Like, if these people want to pay for the data, they can actually use their devices however they want — T-Mobile isn't telling them they can't. T-Mobile is just saying that they aren't offering unlimited data for unlimited devices and unlimited users for $80 a month.
- snuxoll 11y ago
  > The only real choice between vendors is based on price and reliability, since all of them tell you what you can and cannot do with your hardware. They are telling you what you can and cannot do with THEIR NETWORK. You want to go host a web server on your Nexus 6 where people are downloading multi-GB files daily? GO FOR IT! But don't expect your mobile provider to let you do it over their network.
  - drivingmenuts 11y ago
    > They are telling you what you can and cannot do with THEIR NETWORK. The hotspot is from the phone, not the network, so the only way they can tell is if 1) the hotspot is reporting it to them or 2) they are doing packet inspection. Either way, T-Mobile is effectively limiting what I can do with my hardware and hiding behind a bad definition of "unlimited" with the caveats intentionally buried in a wall of legalistic fine-print. Does this seem right, ethical or moral, to you? Because it kinda smells bad to me.
    - chc 11y ago
      > caveats intentionally buried in a wall of legalistic fine-print. It is not buried under legalistic fine-print. They are extremely clear and up-front about what kind of usage is covered under the unlimited data and what the limits on tethering are. When you select the Unlimited plan on their website, "Includes up to 7GB Smartphone Mobile HotSpot data" is the second bullet point in the plan details. I share your frustration with providers who lie about unlimited data, but this is not that.
brandon272 11y ago
Consumers never look at that side of the equation. They don't read their contracts, they don't do their due diligence. They just blame the company and claim the role of victim when something doesn't work out in their favour or when the company does things like ask people to not abuse the network.
- LunaSea 11y ago
  Then again the idea of having alternatives (for anything) is fantasy in the current state of the world.
- LunaSea 11y ago
  Then again the idea of having alternatives (for anything) is fantasy in the current state of the world.
- teacup50 11y ago
  The party with more resources has the advantage -- information and power asymmetry falls in their favor. Of course consumers don't "do their due diligence", because they'd have to do so 1000s of times a day. This is a large part of why we have consumer protection laws in the first place.
  - brandon272 11y ago
    I don't sign 2 year cell phone contracts "1000's of times a day" and when I do sign them I read them because they're really not that long. And if I don't read them and something doesn't work out in my favour I don't pretend it's the phone company's fault. Consumer protection laws do not remove all responsibility from the consumer to be aware of what they are getting into.
    - teacup50 11y ago
      What percentage of consumers do you think are capable of reading contract language accurately, assessing risk/value, judging things like how much bandwidth they use, doing what, and how that may increase or decrease? Likewise, how many lawyers working for cell phone companies are capable of reading contract language accurately? How capable do you think cell phone companies are at projecting data utilization based on the huge trove of customer data they have available to them? Requiring honesty around simple terms like "unlimited" helps level that playing field, at least in some small way.

by chc 11y ago

If it seems to you that T-Mobile should not be able to tell you how you use your device, then it seems to me that you should not sign a contract granting T-Mobile that permission.

drivingmenuts 11y ago

The only real choice between vendors is based on price and reliability, since all of them tell you what you can and cannot do with your hardware. The only other option is to do without and that's just not a realisitic proposition anymore. It might work for Stallman, but not for me.

chc 11y ago
I agree that there isn't anybody offering completely indiscriminate mobile data for unlimited devices and unlimited users for $80 a month. But the fact that I want a Tesla Model S for $300 and nobody in the market is offering such a thing doesn't mean I can force an existing vendor to provide me with a $100,000 car for $300. Like, if these people want to pay for the data, they can actually use their devices however they want — T-Mobile isn't telling them they can't. T-Mobile is just saying that they aren't offering unlimited data for unlimited devices and unlimited users for $80 a month.
snuxoll 11y ago
> The only real choice between vendors is based on price and reliability, since all of them tell you what you can and cannot do with your hardware. They are telling you what you can and cannot do with THEIR NETWORK. You want to go host a web server on your Nexus 6 where people are downloading multi-GB files daily? GO FOR IT! But don't expect your mobile provider to let you do it over their network.
- drivingmenuts 11y ago
  > They are telling you what you can and cannot do with THEIR NETWORK. The hotspot is from the phone, not the network, so the only way they can tell is if 1) the hotspot is reporting it to them or 2) they are doing packet inspection. Either way, T-Mobile is effectively limiting what I can do with my hardware and hiding behind a bad definition of "unlimited" with the caveats intentionally buried in a wall of legalistic fine-print. Does this seem right, ethical or moral, to you? Because it kinda smells bad to me.
  - chc 11y ago
    > caveats intentionally buried in a wall of legalistic fine-print. It is not buried under legalistic fine-print. They are extremely clear and up-front about what kind of usage is covered under the unlimited data and what the limits on tethering are. When you select the Unlimited plan on their website, "Includes up to 7GB Smartphone Mobile HotSpot data" is the second bullet point in the plan details. I share your frustration with providers who lie about unlimited data, but this is not that.

brandon272 11y ago

Consumers never look at that side of the equation. They don't read their contracts, they don't do their due diligence. They just blame the company and claim the role of victim when something doesn't work out in their favour or when the company does things like ask people to not abuse the network.

LunaSea 11y ago
Then again the idea of having alternatives (for anything) is fantasy in the current state of the world.
LunaSea 11y ago
Then again the idea of having alternatives (for anything) is fantasy in the current state of the world.
teacup50 11y ago
The party with more resources has the advantage -- information and power asymmetry falls in their favor. Of course consumers don't "do their due diligence", because they'd have to do so 1000s of times a day. This is a large part of why we have consumer protection laws in the first place.
- brandon272 11y ago
  I don't sign 2 year cell phone contracts "1000's of times a day" and when I do sign them I read them because they're really not that long. And if I don't read them and something doesn't work out in my favour I don't pretend it's the phone company's fault. Consumer protection laws do not remove all responsibility from the consumer to be aware of what they are getting into.
  - teacup50 11y ago
    What percentage of consumers do you think are capable of reading contract language accurately, assessing risk/value, judging things like how much bandwidth they use, doing what, and how that may increase or decrease? Likewise, how many lawyers working for cell phone companies are capable of reading contract language accurately? How capable do you think cell phone companies are at projecting data utilization based on the huge trove of customer data they have available to them? Requiring honesty around simple terms like "unlimited" helps level that playing field, at least in some small way.