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The idea that data can fundamentally change based on how it's viewed, legally, is absurd. I hope this trend passes quickly.

by duaneb 11y ago

Vexs 11y ago
There's an interesting blog post a while back called w"what color are your bits?". Kinda reminds me of what you are talking about. http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
mmcclure 11y ago
This. Honestly, I feel like if companies really think they have technical issues with allowing people "unlimited data", they simply shouldn't offer it. Problem solved, people can consume the data they pay for however they'd like and we don't have to keep redefining unlimited.
snuxoll 11y ago
> The idea that data can fundamentally changed based on how it's viewed, legally, is absurd. Data itself doesn't change, usage patterns do, and that is why restrictions like this exist. My internet connection at home is a reasonably fat 75/5Mbps 'business-class' pipe, I'm paying for a service that expects pretty high usage and the infrastructure is designed to handle it - the coaxial cable going to my house has enough bandwidth and so does the fiber going from the local cable node back to the big datacenter where my traffic eventually gets routed to the rest of the internet. Mobile has an extremely annoying limitation in that we can't just run a cable to every phone, we want stuff to happen wirelessly! Well, since there's no wires providing service every user has to in essence share the same bandwidth coming from a cell site. We can make sure there's plenty of fiber going to each site, but physically 10Mhz of spectrum can only provide so much bandwidth, and that is a huge limiting factor of wireless service. Your 3-6" smartphone has very different usage patterns compared to my 13" ultrabook. You may watch a couple youtube videos, stream some music, maybe even watch a movie on Netflix - but you are unlikely to do so for extended periods of time or on a frequent basis, the usage is very sporadic and lends itself well to sharing with other users. Usage on a tethered laptop or other device is very different, I'm sitting down right now connected to my work VPN 'getting stuff done', checking email, moving large files around, downloading an update for Visual Studio, the list goes on. And this is not something that I do for 10 minutes or even an hour, this is my entire work-day, and I regularly use 10's of Gigabytes of data, something our limited wireless spectrum is not well suited to handle for a large amount of users (that's what WiFi is for!). Unless nationwide we are going to turn a large enough block of wireless spectrum into a national wireless ISP (we're talking probably 100-200Mhz) we simply do not have enough bandwidth over the airwaves to support people with these usage patterns.
- ethbro 11y ago
  Exactly, but at the same time you need to keep a firmer leash on your marketing department to match reality.
  - rhino369 11y ago
    T-Mobile is very upfront about tethering. It tells you exactly how much tether data you get.
  - duaneb 11y ago
    To be fair, T-Mobile is quite explicit about the limitations. When I look at my plan options it explicitly says "7GB tethered data". I just don't like that "tethering" is a thing at all as opposed to just "using your phone's radio".
    - ethbro 11y ago
      The issue I have is that the marketing materials rarely seem to capture those nuances. And that seems kind of scummy to me. http://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone-plans/individual.html# http://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone-plans/individual.html# As an ex-T-Mobile customer, I will completely admit they do a passable job of information (especially compared to other carriers). I think mostly because they take the saner business strategy of "limited 4G + unlimited <= 3G". But the phrase "unlimited data" still appears an awfully lot on that page, without a lot of caveats... Unlimited data isn't unlimited if they limit the devices you can use it on.
- duaneb 11y ago
  This strikes me as preemptive optimization. That's a lot of argument to back up, though I think it has merit. I would feel much more comfortable with straight up metered internet, variably-priced based on current congestion. I would feel much more inclined to believe you if it didn't look like the service providers were trying to change the meaning of internet access—it shouldn't matter which kind of device is "plugged in". That's just terrible service.
ethbro 11y ago
It's going to pass quickly by companies no longer offering "unlimited" plans of any sort. Which was always the more realistic approach to wireless data usage. To me, AT&T (via Uverse) is the ridiculous conclusion of this. They'll happily set up a number of "wireless" (!!) HD receiver boxes that have content streamed to them over WiFi. Nowhere in the marketing materials do they ever mention this potentially having an effect on your data connections. Most consumers just think of wireless transmission as magic with infinite bandwidth. That said, while the above is my realistic appraisal, I do 100% agree with you that using whatever firmware hacks you can to fully utilize TMO's "unlimited" plans, while they continue to market them as that, is completely moral. If they don't want people trying to use unlimited data, then they should quit marketing it as such. You don't get to tell lies / weasel truths and then cry when people hold you to the same expectations that made it an effective marketing campaign in the first place.
- snuxoll 11y ago
  > (That said, while the above is my realistic appraisal, I do 100% agree with you that using whatever firmware hacks you can to fully utilize TMO's "unlimited" plans, while they continue to market them as that, is completely moral. If they don't want people trying to use unlimited data, then they should quit marketing it as such -- you don't get to tell lies / weasel truths and then cry when people hold you to the same expectations that made it an effective marketing campaign in the first place). All of T-Mobile's materials explicitly state unlimited usage is for usage ON YOUR DEVICE. This is not hidden 'fine print' or misleading marketing, it's RIGHT THERE. Don't believe me? http://i.imgur.com/tb2BYAe.png http://i.imgur.com/tb2BYAe.png
  - ethbro 11y ago
    I in fact do not believe you with regards to the majority of their marketing material. I'm glad you've found a counter-example, but I'd say the balance favors being less than transparent: https://www.google.com/search?q=t+mobile+billboards&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=t+mobile+billboards&tbm=isch

The idea that data can fundamentally change based on how it's viewed, legally, is absurd. I hope this trend passes quickly.

by duaneb 11y ago

The idea that data can fundamentally change based on how it's viewed, legally, is absurd. I hope this trend passes quickly.

Vexs 11y ago

There's an interesting blog post a while back called w"what color are your bits?". Kinda reminds me of what you are talking about. http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23

mmcclure 11y ago

This. Honestly, I feel like if companies really think they have technical issues with allowing people "unlimited data", they simply shouldn't offer it. Problem solved, people can consume the data they pay for however they'd like and we don't have to keep redefining unlimited.

snuxoll 11y ago

> The idea that data can fundamentally changed based on how it's viewed, legally, is absurd. Data itself doesn't change, usage patterns do, and that is why restrictions like this exist. My internet connection at home is a reasonably fat 75/5Mbps 'business-class' pipe, I'm paying for a service that expects pretty high usage and the infrastructure is designed to handle it - the coaxial cable going to my house has enough bandwidth and so does the fiber going from the local cable node back to the big datacenter where my traffic eventually gets routed to the rest of the internet. Mobile has an extremely annoying limitation in that we can't just run a cable to every phone, we want stuff to happen wirelessly! Well, since there's no wires providing service every user has to in essence share the same bandwidth coming from a cell site. We can make sure there's plenty of fiber going to each site, but physically 10Mhz of spectrum can only provide so much bandwidth, and that is a huge limiting factor of wireless service. Your 3-6" smartphone has very different usage patterns compared to my 13" ultrabook. You may watch a couple youtube videos, stream some music, maybe even watch a movie on Netflix - but you are unlikely to do so for extended periods of time or on a frequent basis, the usage is very sporadic and lends itself well to sharing with other users. Usage on a tethered laptop or other device is very different, I'm sitting down right now connected to my work VPN 'getting stuff done', checking email, moving large files around, downloading an update for Visual Studio, the list goes on. And this is not something that I do for 10 minutes or even an hour, this is my entire work-day, and I regularly use 10's of Gigabytes of data, something our limited wireless spectrum is not well suited to handle for a large amount of users (that's what WiFi is for!). Unless nationwide we are going to turn a large enough block of wireless spectrum into a national wireless ISP (we're talking probably 100-200Mhz) we simply do not have enough bandwidth over the airwaves to support people with these usage patterns.

ethbro 11y ago
Exactly, but at the same time you need to keep a firmer leash on your marketing department to match reality.
- rhino369 11y ago
  T-Mobile is very upfront about tethering. It tells you exactly how much tether data you get.
- duaneb 11y ago
  To be fair, T-Mobile is quite explicit about the limitations. When I look at my plan options it explicitly says "7GB tethered data". I just don't like that "tethering" is a thing at all as opposed to just "using your phone's radio".
  - ethbro 11y ago
    The issue I have is that the marketing materials rarely seem to capture those nuances. And that seems kind of scummy to me. http://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone-plans/individual.html# http://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone-plans/individual.html# As an ex-T-Mobile customer, I will completely admit they do a passable job of information (especially compared to other carriers). I think mostly because they take the saner business strategy of "limited 4G + unlimited <= 3G". But the phrase "unlimited data" still appears an awfully lot on that page, without a lot of caveats... Unlimited data isn't unlimited if they limit the devices you can use it on.
duaneb 11y ago
This strikes me as preemptive optimization. That's a lot of argument to back up, though I think it has merit. I would feel much more comfortable with straight up metered internet, variably-priced based on current congestion. I would feel much more inclined to believe you if it didn't look like the service providers were trying to change the meaning of internet access—it shouldn't matter which kind of device is "plugged in". That's just terrible service.

ethbro 11y ago

It's going to pass quickly by companies no longer offering "unlimited" plans of any sort. Which was always the more realistic approach to wireless data usage. To me, AT&T (via Uverse) is the ridiculous conclusion of this. They'll happily set up a number of "wireless" (!!) HD receiver boxes that have content streamed to them over WiFi. Nowhere in the marketing materials do they ever mention this potentially having an effect on your data connections. Most consumers just think of wireless transmission as magic with infinite bandwidth. That said, while the above is my realistic appraisal, I do 100% agree with you that using whatever firmware hacks you can to fully utilize TMO's "unlimited" plans, while they continue to market them as that, is completely moral. If they don't want people trying to use unlimited data, then they should quit marketing it as such. You don't get to tell lies / weasel truths and then cry when people hold you to the same expectations that made it an effective marketing campaign in the first place.

snuxoll 11y ago
> (That said, while the above is my realistic appraisal, I do 100% agree with you that using whatever firmware hacks you can to fully utilize TMO's "unlimited" plans, while they continue to market them as that, is completely moral. If they don't want people trying to use unlimited data, then they should quit marketing it as such -- you don't get to tell lies / weasel truths and then cry when people hold you to the same expectations that made it an effective marketing campaign in the first place). All of T-Mobile's materials explicitly state unlimited usage is for usage ON YOUR DEVICE. This is not hidden 'fine print' or misleading marketing, it's RIGHT THERE. Don't believe me? http://i.imgur.com/tb2BYAe.png http://i.imgur.com/tb2BYAe.png
- ethbro 11y ago
  I in fact do not believe you with regards to the majority of their marketing material. I'm glad you've found a counter-example, but I'd say the balance favors being less than transparent: https://www.google.com/search?q=t+mobile+billboards&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=t+mobile+billboards&tbm=isch