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I'd like to note agreement and support of this perspective. Personal anecdote to follow. At a Top 60 World Ranked Research University, I have seen first-hand t

I'd like to note agreement and support of this perspective. Personal anecdote to follow. At a Top 60 World Ranked Research University, I have seen first-hand the students / Post-Docs dealing with a critical lack of jobs or opportunities within academic research. Not to belabor my overall vitriol toward the Boomer generation regarding their behaviors in the market (e.g. "Get all I can, screw those behind me"), but those who have 'made it' and are decision makers now have changed the dynamics to reflect more of a cut-throat, race-to-the-bottom labor pool perspective. That doesn't even factor in the 'IP creep' of interests outside of science trying to get a piece of the action these days. The most telling example? A person working in a good lab (good publication record, pretty well funded) was a PhD Post Doc from the institution where they were working in the lab. Due to cutbacks, the Chair told the PI that costs needed to be cut, which meant 1 employee had to go elsewhere. Rather than suggest the last-hired employee be the one, the Chair pointed to the PhD Post Doc and said: "Just fire her and get an H1-B." I trust my sources and do know the context of the conversation / lab's outlook. It was pretty stunning to me though. Go to great university, get PhD, put in effort and be on papers as a Post Doc, then kicked to the curb for an H1-B on a purely fiscal basis. That's some hot garbage right there. I'm glad to note that the Post Doc in this story has left bench science and is now a full time professor elsewhere, where she is appreciated much more. And, without hesitation, she steers talented science minds away from research as a career.

shas3 11y ago
I call bullshit. Given how little a department actually spends on employees that report to PIs, it would be interesting to know how this happened! Further, H1B is not a zero-cost or low cost proposition for universities and departments, especially for short term appointments! He said she said can provoke discussions, but should also be viewed with skepticism! It might work for large companies because the upfront cost ($10k attorney, filing, etc.) amortizes over the several years the h1b is likely to be employed.
- 6stringmerc 11y ago
  Well you can call bullshit but I have the math and you can't argue with it. The Post Doc was 1 year away from being promoted to Instructor, which meant they were at the upper bound of the Post Doc salary. Also, if the Post Doc was promoted to Instructor, they would become Faculty and would be unable to be shit-canned during a Reduction In Force (RIF) scenario. The Chair made all of this clear. So, if you're going to call me a liar, you can go pound sand because that's not how I roll. Thanks to a little tool I found here on Hacker News, I was able to look up the number of H1-B Visa applications for this Top 60 Research University, and in one year alone, they applied for 70+ Post Doc H1-B Visas. Obviously they know how to pull it off. Besides, everybody in science knows that students / Post Docs are expected to be like slave labor, and as many have pointed out, the conditions of the H1-B are extremely beneficial to the employer in the context of pressure to perform and retention. Skepticism is fine, but it's not bullshit. Your rebuttal is ineffectual and belongs in the circular file.
  - dominotw 11y ago
    >but I have the math and you can't argue with it. Where is "the math"? You just reiterated your previous post with more vitriol.
    - Retra 11y ago
      Debating the validity someone's anecdote (when it is only incidentally relevant anyway) is not something to get hung up on.
      - dominotw 11y ago
        thanks mom
  - shas3 11y ago
    I am not accusing you of lying. These are hardly facts to lie about and involve a lot of supposition. For instance, the chair may have made an offhand remark, but the faculty (especially if tenured) may or may not be beholden to the chair. No promotion anywhere is obligatory, so the postdoc could have been denied Instructorship for a hundred other reasons, etc. etc. Further if the postdoc was denied instructorship and another H1B was hired in their place, then it is just tantamount to eliminating the instructor position. It goes on and on.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- selimthegrim 11y ago
  He probably misspoke and meant J-1, but the import is the same.
laurencerowe 11y ago
That sounds surprising as a post-doc will be paid significantly less than a staff member (which an H1-B implies.)
- ta9028323897 11y ago
  It seems like at least some universities use H1-B for some postdocs, eg [1] I think it's worth adding that for higher ed, H1-B is uncapped. [1] http://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/ucb_departments/h-1b/policies http://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/ucb_departments/h-1b...

shas3 11y ago

I call bullshit. Given how little a department actually spends on employees that report to PIs, it would be interesting to know how this happened! Further, H1B is not a zero-cost or low cost proposition for universities and departments, especially for short term appointments! He said she said can provoke discussions, but should also be viewed with skepticism! It might work for large companies because the upfront cost ($10k attorney, filing, etc.) amortizes over the several years the h1b is likely to be employed.

6stringmerc 11y ago
Well you can call bullshit but I have the math and you can't argue with it. The Post Doc was 1 year away from being promoted to Instructor, which meant they were at the upper bound of the Post Doc salary. Also, if the Post Doc was promoted to Instructor, they would become Faculty and would be unable to be shit-canned during a Reduction In Force (RIF) scenario. The Chair made all of this clear. So, if you're going to call me a liar, you can go pound sand because that's not how I roll. Thanks to a little tool I found here on Hacker News, I was able to look up the number of H1-B Visa applications for this Top 60 Research University, and in one year alone, they applied for 70+ Post Doc H1-B Visas. Obviously they know how to pull it off. Besides, everybody in science knows that students / Post Docs are expected to be like slave labor, and as many have pointed out, the conditions of the H1-B are extremely beneficial to the employer in the context of pressure to perform and retention. Skepticism is fine, but it's not bullshit. Your rebuttal is ineffectual and belongs in the circular file.
- dominotw 11y ago
  >but I have the math and you can't argue with it. Where is "the math"? You just reiterated your previous post with more vitriol.
  - Retra 11y ago
    Debating the validity someone's anecdote (when it is only incidentally relevant anyway) is not something to get hung up on.
    - dominotw 11y ago
      thanks mom
- shas3 11y ago
  I am not accusing you of lying. These are hardly facts to lie about and involve a lot of supposition. For instance, the chair may have made an offhand remark, but the faculty (especially if tenured) may or may not be beholden to the chair. No promotion anywhere is obligatory, so the postdoc could have been denied Instructorship for a hundred other reasons, etc. etc. Further if the postdoc was denied instructorship and another H1B was hired in their place, then it is just tantamount to eliminating the instructor position. It goes on and on.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
selimthegrim 11y ago
He probably misspoke and meant J-1, but the import is the same.

laurencerowe 11y ago

That sounds surprising as a post-doc will be paid significantly less than a staff member (which an H1-B implies.)

ta9028323897 11y ago
It seems like at least some universities use H1-B for some postdocs, eg [1] I think it's worth adding that for higher ed, H1-B is uncapped. [1] http://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/ucb_departments/h-1b/policies http://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/ucb_departments/h-1b...