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Ask HN: Why is North associated with 'Up'?

1 points by theSage 11y ago

Why is the 'North' associated with 'Up' in maps? A world map turned upside down would be disorienting but correct. Why do we draw North in the upper part? Is there any reason other than convention?

dalke 11y ago
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/441/on-maps-why-is-north-always-up http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/441/on-maps-why-is-... and http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/maps-cartographycolonialismnortheurocentricglobe.html http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/maps-cartograph... seem to cover the topic pretty well. Is there anything you want that a web search on the topic fails to resolve?
gmuslera 11y ago
Probably one of the oldest ways of orientation were the stars, in particular the north one, that is more or less fixed in the sky, and it was up. So probably the first maps (and the ones coming after them) followed that idea.
- dalke 11y ago
  That's a post hoc justification, without historical basis. The earliest Egyptian maps show south at the top of the map. European maps in the Middle Ages used east. Not only does the sun rise in the east, but east was important in Christianity; eg, churches were built facing the rising sun and people buried with their head towards the sun. We get our term 'to orient' from the importance of knowing where east is. At https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana you can see an Arab map from 1154, with north at the bottom. "It remained the most accurate world map for the next three centuries."
  - ZoeZoeBee 11y ago
    Egyptian Maps show the South as Up as that matches the flow of the Nile, Upper Egypt in the South, Lower Egypt in the North....
ZoeZoeBee 11y ago
North is up because most of human's civilizations especially the Western ones have occurred in the Northern hemisphere, where water generally flows south "down" towards the equator. So in Egypt where the Nile Flows North, the Upper Nile is in Southern Africa, while the Lower Nile is in the North.
- dalke 11y ago
  That doesn't explain why many Northern hemisphere civilizations had south or east at the top of the map. For examples: Arab map from 1154 with south at the top - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana Anglo-Saxon map from c. 1040 with east at the top - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps#Anglo-Saxon_Cotton_world_map_.28c._1040.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps#Anglo-Saxon_C... Map from Spain, ca. 1050 with east at the top - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatus_map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatus_map Another Middle Ages European map with east at the top - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalter_world_map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalter_world_map Turkish map from 1072 with east, or perhaps midsummer sunrise, at the top - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps#Mahmud_al-Kashgari.27s_map_.281072.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps#Mahmud_al-Kas... . Chinese map from the 2nd century BC with south at the top - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Western_Han_Mawangdui_Silk_Map.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Western_Han_Mawangdu...
  - ZoeZoeBee 11y ago
    Did you simply google maps with south at top and post the links, as with anything throughout history there are outliers, but for the most part Western Civilizations above the Equator View North as Up and South as Down because that is the way the water generally Flows towards the equator, because of gravity. Do you find it at all odd the maps you provided are almost all of cities and regions and not a worldview? Also those maps especially your Chinese, Spanish and Anglo Saxon Maps are oriented to the flow of the water source they are representing....
    - dalke 11y ago
timonoko 11y ago
"Lintukoto" (Home of the birds) was a warm place where earth raises to meet the sky. It was southwest from Finland and up. And of course "Tuonela" (Home of the dead) was northeast and down.

1 points by theSage 11y ago

Why is the 'North' associated with 'Up' in maps? A world map turned upside down would be disorienting but correct. Why do we draw North in the upper part? Is there any reason other than convention?

dalke 11y ago

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/441/on-maps-why-is-north-always-up http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/441/on-maps-why-is-... and http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/maps-cartographycolonialismnortheurocentricglobe.html http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/maps-cartograph... seem to cover the topic pretty well. Is there anything you want that a web search on the topic fails to resolve?

gmuslera 11y ago

Probably one of the oldest ways of orientation were the stars, in particular the north one, that is more or less fixed in the sky, and it was up. So probably the first maps (and the ones coming after them) followed that idea.

dalke 11y ago
That's a post hoc justification, without historical basis. The earliest Egyptian maps show south at the top of the map. European maps in the Middle Ages used east. Not only does the sun rise in the east, but east was important in Christianity; eg, churches were built facing the rising sun and people buried with their head towards the sun. We get our term 'to orient' from the importance of knowing where east is. At https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana you can see an Arab map from 1154, with north at the bottom. "It remained the most accurate world map for the next three centuries."
- ZoeZoeBee 11y ago
  Egyptian Maps show the South as Up as that matches the flow of the Nile, Upper Egypt in the South, Lower Egypt in the North....

ZoeZoeBee 11y ago

North is up because most of human's civilizations especially the Western ones have occurred in the Northern hemisphere, where water generally flows south "down" towards the equator. So in Egypt where the Nile Flows North, the Upper Nile is in Southern Africa, while the Lower Nile is in the North.

dalke 11y ago
That doesn't explain why many Northern hemisphere civilizations had south or east at the top of the map. For examples: Arab map from 1154 with south at the top - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana Anglo-Saxon map from c. 1040 with east at the top - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps#Anglo-Saxon_Cotton_world_map_.28c._1040.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps#Anglo-Saxon_C... Map from Spain, ca. 1050 with east at the top - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatus_map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatus_map Another Middle Ages European map with east at the top - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalter_world_map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalter_world_map Turkish map from 1072 with east, or perhaps midsummer sunrise, at the top - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps#Mahmud_al-Kashgari.27s_map_.281072.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps#Mahmud_al-Kas... . Chinese map from the 2nd century BC with south at the top - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Western_Han_Mawangdui_Silk_Map.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Western_Han_Mawangdu...
- ZoeZoeBee 11y ago
  Did you simply google maps with south at top and post the links, as with anything throughout history there are outliers, but for the most part Western Civilizations above the Equator View North as Up and South as Down because that is the way the water generally Flows towards the equator, because of gravity. Do you find it at all odd the maps you provided are almost all of cities and regions and not a worldview? Also those maps especially your Chinese, Spanish and Anglo Saxon Maps are oriented to the flow of the water source they are representing....
  - dalke 11y ago

timonoko 11y ago

"Lintukoto" (Home of the birds) was a warm place where earth raises to meet the sky. It was southwest from Finland and up. And of course "Tuonela" (Home of the dead) was northeast and down.