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> The other problem with cycle infrastructure is that if it's not good > for a 7 year old to ride on, it's not going to work for the general public. Bikes are

by usrusr 11y ago

> The other problem with cycle infrastructure is that if it's not good > for a 7 year old to ride on, it's not going to work for the general public. Bikes are children's toys, that's so... Saudi Arabia? I really consider this a terrible design principle, because nobody likes to be treated like a seven year old and doing so could be a serious disincentive against cycling for anyone but the most irrationally fearsome. Design for competent cyclists, everyone can eventually become one. If the result happens to good for the seven year old, fine, it'd not that unlikely if money and space permits it at all. If not, treat children like pedestrians and grant the appropriate exceptions in law for supervising adults. They are surely not the kind of cyclist who causes havoc on the sidewalk today (this won't work in exceptionally walked places like most of Manhattan, but there, nothing less than a complete network of elevated bikeways could be made even remotely child-proof while providing real transport and not just some recreational riding in a park).

awjr 11y ago
The issue is that people cycle despite the conditions and pavement cycling is illegal in some countries (UK). Also pavement cycling is slow and tedious compared to on-road cycling or within a dedicated cycle track. The idea of making a cycle route "child proof" is not to appeal to current cyclists, but to persuade people that want to cycle but feel the roads are just to dangerous to share them with buses, to get on a bike. Taking Bath, UK as an example, the river to the west of Bath has a shared use traffic free child friendly path that connects that area to the heart of the city with 12% of people cycling to work. A similar area without that connection on the east side is about 5% http://datashine.org.uk/#table=QS701EW&col=QS701EW0010&ramp=YlOrRd&layers=BTTT&zoom=14&lon=-2.3701&lat=51.3868 http://datashine.org.uk/#table=QS701EW&col=QS701EW0010&ramp=... This is all about persuading parents that it is safe to let their kids cycle to school as the roads are designed to accommodate that should a child fall off his bike they won't be killed by a car running them over. With that type of infrastructure in place you get a massive uptake.
- usrusr 11y ago
  Cycling with children is slow and tedious, so it's a perfect fit. And yes, I was talking about changing the law. Here in Germany we are half way there, it's mandatory for children, but forbidden for their supervisors who are also not allowed to let younger children ride three unsupervised. Perfect catch 22.
  - awjr 11y ago
    Who's talking about cycling with children? I'm talking about kicking them out on their bike and having them cycle to school on their own.
    - more_original 11y ago
      In Germany it's mandatory for children to ride on the sidewalk. But for an adult accompanying the child, it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk.
- wcummings 11y ago
  Is "pavement cycling" (cycling on the sidewalk) a really big problem in the UK? It's come up a few times in this thread. It's illegal in Boston, as well, but basically a non-issue. I occasionally see people doing it, but it's usually children or someone making a quick detour.
jules 11y ago
The reason why adults in the netherlands are biking is because they started at age 7 or younger. So at least from this perspective it's a sound design principle. Making safe bikeways is easy and benefits 7 year olds and adults alike: instead of making streets have [bike lane][car lane][car lane][bike lane] make streets like [car lane][car lane] || [bike lane][bike lane].
- usrusr 11y ago
  I started cycling at a similar age ("or younger"), but my radius of operation was not very large at the time. No amount of cycling infrastructure could have changed that. Designing for children can't be free from tradeoffs and it's counterproductive to follow that goal in places where children would not go anyway. Flipping lanes around is all fun and games until you need to have some kind of intersection (or, even worse: tiny access roads to private properties. This is where wrong-sided bike lanes kill)

by usrusr 11y ago

awjr 11y ago

The issue is that people cycle despite the conditions and pavement cycling is illegal in some countries (UK). Also pavement cycling is slow and tedious compared to on-road cycling or within a dedicated cycle track. The idea of making a cycle route "child proof" is not to appeal to current cyclists, but to persuade people that want to cycle but feel the roads are just to dangerous to share them with buses, to get on a bike. Taking Bath, UK as an example, the river to the west of Bath has a shared use traffic free child friendly path that connects that area to the heart of the city with 12% of people cycling to work. A similar area without that connection on the east side is about 5% http://datashine.org.uk/#table=QS701EW&col=QS701EW0010&ramp=YlOrRd&layers=BTTT&zoom=14&lon=-2.3701&lat=51.3868 http://datashine.org.uk/#table=QS701EW&col=QS701EW0010&ramp=... This is all about persuading parents that it is safe to let their kids cycle to school as the roads are designed to accommodate that should a child fall off his bike they won't be killed by a car running them over. With that type of infrastructure in place you get a massive uptake.

usrusr 11y ago
Cycling with children is slow and tedious, so it's a perfect fit. And yes, I was talking about changing the law. Here in Germany we are half way there, it's mandatory for children, but forbidden for their supervisors who are also not allowed to let younger children ride three unsupervised. Perfect catch 22.
- awjr 11y ago
  Who's talking about cycling with children? I'm talking about kicking them out on their bike and having them cycle to school on their own.
  - more_original 11y ago
    In Germany it's mandatory for children to ride on the sidewalk. But for an adult accompanying the child, it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk.
wcummings 11y ago
Is "pavement cycling" (cycling on the sidewalk) a really big problem in the UK? It's come up a few times in this thread. It's illegal in Boston, as well, but basically a non-issue. I occasionally see people doing it, but it's usually children or someone making a quick detour.

jules 11y ago

The reason why adults in the netherlands are biking is because they started at age 7 or younger. So at least from this perspective it's a sound design principle. Making safe bikeways is easy and benefits 7 year olds and adults alike: instead of making streets have [bike lane][car lane][car lane][bike lane] make streets like [car lane][car lane] || [bike lane][bike lane].

usrusr 11y ago
I started cycling at a similar age ("or younger"), but my radius of operation was not very large at the time. No amount of cycling infrastructure could have changed that. Designing for children can't be free from tradeoffs and it's counterproductive to follow that goal in places where children would not go anyway. Flipping lanes around is all fun and games until you need to have some kind of intersection (or, even worse: tiny access roads to private properties. This is where wrong-sided bike lanes kill)