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I think BMW has been working on technologies for electric cars for a very long time already, probably even longer than all-electric car manufacturers like Tesla

I think BMW has been working on technologies for electric cars for a very long time already, probably even longer than all-electric car manufacturers like Tesla have existed. In Munich you already see quite a lot of electric BMWs and charging stations, so the technology seems to be pretty mature as far as I can tell. I think the main reason they did not make the transition to (partially) electric cars earlier is that they did not want to cannibalize their business with non-electric cars. Another point is the still-missing charging infrastructure and the (to my limited knowledge) lack of some universal standard for charging stations. The final point is that today potential buyers of electric cars still have many good alternatives that are as much or even more ecological than all-electric cars. If you look e.g. at the new models from Volkswagen or BMW, many of the smaller ones use 4 liters of gasoline / 100 km or less (i.e. > 71 MPG), which is pretty hard to beat in terms of eco-friendliness and efficiency considering that electricity is still much more expensive than gasoline in terms of energy / price. One driving factor in the transition to partially electric cars might be that there are not many other possibilities left to further increase the efficiency of conventional engines. In fact, most of the increase in efficiency that we have seen in the last decade was not due to better thermodynamic design of the motor block but better control of e.g. the fuel injection through more advanced sensors and electronics. As this optimization path seems to have reached is maximum potential it probably makes a lot of sense to use electric motors to e.g. recover braking energy, which should shave off another few percent in fuel consumption (Toyota already proved the feasibility of this very successfully with their Prius series).

gaius 11y ago
Indeed they have, consider their "turbosteamer" technology. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbosteamer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbosteamer
- stcredzero 11y ago
  This would make for a dynamite series hybrid powerplant! By recovering the exhausted heat energy, you're getting a huge boost in thermodynamic efficiency, and in such an arrangement the engine could be optimized to be very quiet and efficient by sacrificing maximum output and throttle response.
  - AnonNo15 11y ago
    Modern combined cycle powerplants are exactly that (exhaust from gas turbine is used to heat steam for secondary steam turbine)
- ThePhysicist 11y ago
  Wow quite interesting, thanks for pointing this out!
lispm 11y ago
BMW is making lots of money with eco-unfriendly cars: 7, huge SUV, over powered limousines, ... In their home market in Germany electric cars have very little acceptance: expensive, low range, electricity is mostly generated with coal, no infrastructure, ... The program of the German government to have a million electric cars is largely a failure. Before there will be a million electric cars in Germany, there will be ten million electric bicycles.
- Bud 11y ago
  Germany actually has a much larger solar infrastructure than the US, despite being much smaller in land area, having less than a third of the US' population, and getting considerably less sunlight exposure per unit of land area. It's the US, not Germany, that is excessively wedded to coal generation.
- ThePhysicist 11y ago
  Well even the big limousines are actually quite fuel-efficient these days. For example, the series 7 BMW 730 with its 250 horse powers uses only 5.6 l / 100 km (http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicles/7series/sedan/2012/showroom/technical-data/? http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicles/7series/sedan/2012/sho...). BTW coal makes up for only 20 % of the electricity production in Germany, and most of the coal-based power plants are quite "clean" in the sense that they make good use of the available energy (in most cases the heat waste is used industrially and emissions are heavily filtered). As I said before, adoption here is mostly a question of availability, cost and efficiency, all three of which need to be improved before customers will see electric cars as a "reasonable" choice.
  - lispm 11y ago
    > Well even the big limousines are actually quite fuel-efficient these days. For example, the series 7 BMW 730 with its 250 horse powers uses only 5.6 l / 100 km (http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicles/7series/sedan/2012/sho... http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicles/7series/sedan/2012/sho...). These are unrealistic industry-produced numbers. This is widely discussed in Germany that these numbers are a joke. Also forget the massive amount of energy going into the production of these cars and the materials they use. The huge space and infrastructure they are using... we still have air problems in the cities because of the diesel cars. > 20 % of the electricity production in Germany Coal has a share of 43.6% of electricity production in Germany. > in most cases the heat waste is used industrially and emissions are heavily filtered). The filter ash is going where? The coal is coming from where? CO2 is not filtered.
nickbauman 11y ago
The "charging infra problem" is a hoax. The "fuel" comes out of ordinary electric sockets. People have them in their own garages, no less. Even the old EV1 from the 90's got a 75% charge in only 15 minutes.
- mikeash 11y ago
  The original EV1 had a 16.5kWh battery, so to get a 75% charge in 15 minutes it would have to pull about 50kW. If by "ordinary electric socket" you mean a NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 i.e. standard American 120V socket, it would have to pull about 420 amps. Since the wiring and sockets are only rated for 15 or 20 amps respectively, this would pretty much instantaneously start a raging fire if you somehow managed to pull that much current without tripping the breaker. Even at 240V, you'd have to pull over 200 amps, which is beyond what most houses are provisioned for, beyond what any 240V plug is rated for, and far beyond what the actual charger could handle. The actual "high speed" charger for the EV1 was 6.6kW, so a 75% charge would take a little under two hours. On a normal NEMA 5-15 socket, a 75% charge would take about ten hours. To charge at 50kW you'd need DC fast charging technology, which wasn't available until a decade later.
  - nickbauman 11y ago
    Read it yourself: The EV-1 from way back in the 90's seems to have some engineering that surpasses even the latest Leaf. The last EV-1 got a full charge in only 3 hours. http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/how-does-gms-fabled-ev1-stack-up-against-the-current-crop-of-electrics/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/how-does-gms-fabled-ev1-st...
    - mikeash 11y ago
      OK? How does any of that contradict what I said, or support what you said? A full charge of a 16.5kWh battery in 3 hours requires 5.5kW charging power. That's nothing special, and it doesn't come anywhere close to what you'd need to charge 75% in 15 minutes.
    - spankalee 11y ago
ams6110 11y ago
I don't see the argument that EVs or even hybrids would cannibalize their traditional lines. EVs are simply impractical for most people, so having them would not hurt sales of their traditional cars. They would however offer something to buyers who might otherwise go for a Tesla or other full EV. Hybrids are more accepted (I myself wouldn't buy one, but most car makers have hybrid versions of all their popular models) so again I don't see the problem. If anything, having hybrids would open up their markets to a larger consumer base.
kw71 11y ago
10-15 years ago BMW was promoting bivalent Hydrogen/petrol as the future and one of their spokespeople even mocked Toyota at a car show over the prius (according to a contemporary article in the Roundel). Glad they ate those words because I don't think the hydrogen was very workable.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- listic 11y ago
  Do you think hydrogen is not a viable fuel for cars? Why? Toyota seems to be starting making hydrogen cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai I'm not sure myself. For now, it looks like just another type of fuel for gas* stations to carry, yet it doesn't seem to offer better range or other advantages. * now, if hydrogen powered cars will catch on, this gas Americanism will have the right meaning, at once :-)
heygrady 11y ago
> Another point is the still-missing charging infrastructure I've had two electric cars. I've only charged publicly a few times. Many parking garages have installed chargers. I charge at home in my garage. I wake up every morning with a full charge. Many people who've only owned gas-powered cars don't consider this advantage. A Nissan Leaf or a BMW i3 can only go 80 to 100 miles on the battery. But that covers the average commute of nearly every American commuter. With a charging place at work, you'd be able to swing a 70 to 100 mile daily commute and never need a public fast-charging infrastructure. If you commute more than 100 miles each direction, an EV may not be for you. http://www.statisticbrain.com/commute-statistics/ http://www.statisticbrain.com/commute-statistics/ Installing workplace chargers: http://energy.gov/eere/vehicles/workplace-charging-challenge-install-and-manage-pev-charging-work http://energy.gov/eere/vehicles/workplace-charging-challenge... For long distance driving and fast charging, that's currently a mess. Only Tesla has a respectable offering on that front. It's worth considering that most people don't drive long distances very often. Tesla has made a huge investment. One might speculate that their proprietary infrastructure will eventually become the standard charging network everyone is waiting for. Tesla chargers: http://supercharge.info/ http://supercharge.info/ Chademo chargers: http://www.chademo.com/wp/usmap/ http://www.chademo.com/wp/usmap/
- plonh 11y ago
  IIRC, Tesla predates the standard, provides adapters, and will migrate over to the standard.
  - heygrady 11y ago
    There are currently two standards. Chademo has much wider adoption. SAE Combo is backed by US and European car makers. CHAdeMO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO SAE Combo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Combined_charging_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Combined_charging_sy...
  - heygrady 11y ago
    Tesla Chademo Adapter: http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-adapters/products/chademo-adapter http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-ada... Tesla SAE Adapter: http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-adapters/products/sae-j1772 http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-ada...

gaius 11y ago

Indeed they have, consider their "turbosteamer" technology. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbosteamer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbosteamer

stcredzero 11y ago
This would make for a dynamite series hybrid powerplant! By recovering the exhausted heat energy, you're getting a huge boost in thermodynamic efficiency, and in such an arrangement the engine could be optimized to be very quiet and efficient by sacrificing maximum output and throttle response.
- AnonNo15 11y ago
  Modern combined cycle powerplants are exactly that (exhaust from gas turbine is used to heat steam for secondary steam turbine)
ThePhysicist 11y ago
Wow quite interesting, thanks for pointing this out!

lispm 11y ago

BMW is making lots of money with eco-unfriendly cars: 7, huge SUV, over powered limousines, ... In their home market in Germany electric cars have very little acceptance: expensive, low range, electricity is mostly generated with coal, no infrastructure, ... The program of the German government to have a million electric cars is largely a failure. Before there will be a million electric cars in Germany, there will be ten million electric bicycles.

Bud 11y ago
Germany actually has a much larger solar infrastructure than the US, despite being much smaller in land area, having less than a third of the US' population, and getting considerably less sunlight exposure per unit of land area. It's the US, not Germany, that is excessively wedded to coal generation.
ThePhysicist 11y ago
Well even the big limousines are actually quite fuel-efficient these days. For example, the series 7 BMW 730 with its 250 horse powers uses only 5.6 l / 100 km (http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicles/7series/sedan/2012/showroom/technical-data/? http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicles/7series/sedan/2012/sho...). BTW coal makes up for only 20 % of the electricity production in Germany, and most of the coal-based power plants are quite "clean" in the sense that they make good use of the available energy (in most cases the heat waste is used industrially and emissions are heavily filtered). As I said before, adoption here is mostly a question of availability, cost and efficiency, all three of which need to be improved before customers will see electric cars as a "reasonable" choice.
- lispm 11y ago
  > Well even the big limousines are actually quite fuel-efficient these days. For example, the series 7 BMW 730 with its 250 horse powers uses only 5.6 l / 100 km (http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicles/7series/sedan/2012/sho... http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicles/7series/sedan/2012/sho...). These are unrealistic industry-produced numbers. This is widely discussed in Germany that these numbers are a joke. Also forget the massive amount of energy going into the production of these cars and the materials they use. The huge space and infrastructure they are using... we still have air problems in the cities because of the diesel cars. > 20 % of the electricity production in Germany Coal has a share of 43.6% of electricity production in Germany. > in most cases the heat waste is used industrially and emissions are heavily filtered). The filter ash is going where? The coal is coming from where? CO2 is not filtered.

nickbauman 11y ago

The "charging infra problem" is a hoax. The "fuel" comes out of ordinary electric sockets. People have them in their own garages, no less. Even the old EV1 from the 90's got a 75% charge in only 15 minutes.

mikeash 11y ago
The original EV1 had a 16.5kWh battery, so to get a 75% charge in 15 minutes it would have to pull about 50kW. If by "ordinary electric socket" you mean a NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 i.e. standard American 120V socket, it would have to pull about 420 amps. Since the wiring and sockets are only rated for 15 or 20 amps respectively, this would pretty much instantaneously start a raging fire if you somehow managed to pull that much current without tripping the breaker. Even at 240V, you'd have to pull over 200 amps, which is beyond what most houses are provisioned for, beyond what any 240V plug is rated for, and far beyond what the actual charger could handle. The actual "high speed" charger for the EV1 was 6.6kW, so a 75% charge would take a little under two hours. On a normal NEMA 5-15 socket, a 75% charge would take about ten hours. To charge at 50kW you'd need DC fast charging technology, which wasn't available until a decade later.
- nickbauman 11y ago
  Read it yourself: The EV-1 from way back in the 90's seems to have some engineering that surpasses even the latest Leaf. The last EV-1 got a full charge in only 3 hours. http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/how-does-gms-fabled-ev1-stack-up-against-the-current-crop-of-electrics/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/how-does-gms-fabled-ev1-st...
  - mikeash 11y ago
    OK? How does any of that contradict what I said, or support what you said? A full charge of a 16.5kWh battery in 3 hours requires 5.5kW charging power. That's nothing special, and it doesn't come anywhere close to what you'd need to charge 75% in 15 minutes.
  - spankalee 11y ago

ams6110 11y ago

I don't see the argument that EVs or even hybrids would cannibalize their traditional lines. EVs are simply impractical for most people, so having them would not hurt sales of their traditional cars. They would however offer something to buyers who might otherwise go for a Tesla or other full EV. Hybrids are more accepted (I myself wouldn't buy one, but most car makers have hybrid versions of all their popular models) so again I don't see the problem. If anything, having hybrids would open up their markets to a larger consumer base.

kw71 11y ago

10-15 years ago BMW was promoting bivalent Hydrogen/petrol as the future and one of their spokespeople even mocked Toyota at a car show over the prius (according to a contemporary article in the Roundel). Glad they ate those words because I don't think the hydrogen was very workable.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
listic 11y ago
Do you think hydrogen is not a viable fuel for cars? Why? Toyota seems to be starting making hydrogen cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai I'm not sure myself. For now, it looks like just another type of fuel for gas* stations to carry, yet it doesn't seem to offer better range or other advantages. * now, if hydrogen powered cars will catch on, this gas Americanism will have the right meaning, at once :-)

heygrady 11y ago

> Another point is the still-missing charging infrastructure I've had two electric cars. I've only charged publicly a few times. Many parking garages have installed chargers. I charge at home in my garage. I wake up every morning with a full charge. Many people who've only owned gas-powered cars don't consider this advantage. A Nissan Leaf or a BMW i3 can only go 80 to 100 miles on the battery. But that covers the average commute of nearly every American commuter. With a charging place at work, you'd be able to swing a 70 to 100 mile daily commute and never need a public fast-charging infrastructure. If you commute more than 100 miles each direction, an EV may not be for you. http://www.statisticbrain.com/commute-statistics/ http://www.statisticbrain.com/commute-statistics/ Installing workplace chargers: http://energy.gov/eere/vehicles/workplace-charging-challenge-install-and-manage-pev-charging-work http://energy.gov/eere/vehicles/workplace-charging-challenge... For long distance driving and fast charging, that's currently a mess. Only Tesla has a respectable offering on that front. It's worth considering that most people don't drive long distances very often. Tesla has made a huge investment. One might speculate that their proprietary infrastructure will eventually become the standard charging network everyone is waiting for. Tesla chargers: http://supercharge.info/ http://supercharge.info/ Chademo chargers: http://www.chademo.com/wp/usmap/ http://www.chademo.com/wp/usmap/

plonh 11y ago
IIRC, Tesla predates the standard, provides adapters, and will migrate over to the standard.
- heygrady 11y ago
  There are currently two standards. Chademo has much wider adoption. SAE Combo is backed by US and European car makers. CHAdeMO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO SAE Combo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Combined_charging_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Combined_charging_sy...
- heygrady 11y ago
  Tesla Chademo Adapter: http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-adapters/products/chademo-adapter http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-ada... Tesla SAE Adapter: http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-adapters/products/sae-j1772 http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-ada...