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I'm chair of CycleBath (http://www.cyclebath.org.uk http://www.cyclebath.org.uk) and we're having one hell of a time pushing for better cycle infrastructure. I

by awjr 11y ago

I'm chair of CycleBath (http://www.cyclebath.org.uk http://www.cyclebath.org.uk) and we're having one hell of a time pushing for better cycle infrastructure. I think one of the more interesting problems we have is that cyclists are treated as an outlier group within the UK. There are certain cities that "get" cycling e.g. Cambridge ( https://vimeo.com/133736570 https://vimeo.com/133736570) but persuading the general public that it is worth spending money on cycling is extremely hard. We have recently taken the approach to educate people that attend the Police Community Liaison meetings where they can spend 50%+ of the time discussing illegal pavement cycling, as to why it happens. http://cyclebath.org.uk/2015/08/24/how-to-solve-pavement-cycling/ http://cyclebath.org.uk/2015/08/24/how-to-solve-pavement-cyc... I truly believe that the transport policy of your local authority defines the health and wellbeing of your residents. I think the fact the cost of healthcare in the UK is "hidden" as it is "free" has subtlety enabled a car centric culture to persist. My father who lives in Florida stated that people are demanding cycle tracks. They want to keep fit and keep their healthcare insurance low. In the UK obesity in boys is around 16%, in the Netherlands it's around 1.6%. The other problem with cycle infrastructure is that if it's not good for a 7 year old to ride on, it's not going to work for the general public. Segregation is key and definitely do not allow your local authority to create shared space where pedestrians and cyclists mix "happily". Then you have the biggest issue. Cycle infrastructure is only as good as the weakest link. So local residents can massively impact the quality of the network and thus the ability for people 5 miles away to make a decision to choose to cycle. So you get a piece-meal approach to cycle network development in the hope that it will join up eventually :( As an aside, I noted somebody felt 10miles was too far on a bike. I would suggest investigating e-bikes. They are rather good these days and can happily tank along at 15.5mph (Europe), even faster in some countries.

hueving 11y ago
>In the UK obesity in boys is around 16%, in the Netherlands it's around 1.6%. Not to detract much from your larger point, but this is much more likely due to diet than cycling. If the UK is picking up eating habits similar to the US, the ~200 calories a day you might burn from a leisurely bike commute (can't be vigorous enough to cause sweating) isn't going to be enough to offset the big caloric imbalances that lead to obesity.
- kaonashi 11y ago
  How is ~10% of average daily caloric intake insignificant?
  - IkmoIkmo 11y ago
    Exactly, especially when it's the last 10% that makes the most difference in deciding whether there's a caloric deficit, break-even or surplus, and that over time these small differences compound to radical changes in bodyweight.
  - hueving 11y ago
    When you're 500 over, you need to recognize that biking isn't going to fix your problem. People pretend exercise just magically fixes obesity when it's rarely that close of an imbalance for obese (not overweight) people.
    - kaonashi 11y ago
      You'll gain weight at half the rate.
- awjr 11y ago
  I'm not saying kids are not fat in the Netherlands, just not obese. Something like 60% of kids cycle to school in the Netherlands. It's estimated that about 22% of rush hour in the UK is the school run. I'm trying to look at Cambridge obesity rates vs other cities to see if there is some correlation.
- awjr 11y ago
  EU obesity rates with the UK at 26% and Netherlands at 11%. Italy is even better, so diet is obviously a key factor. http://www.dw.com/en/rising-eu-obesity-rings-alarm-bells-in-brussels/a-16821112 http://www.dw.com/en/rising-eu-obesity-rings-alarm-bells-in-... I've looked at obesity studies in the UK and the child focused ones look at the location of fast food restaurants close to schools. I've never seen a study that looks at obesity rates and examines the Local Authorities transport policies. Cambridge, Bristol and some parts of London are possibly good control groups. I know Bath has better health than the UK average, but 27% of people walk to work.
usrusr 11y ago
> The other problem with cycle infrastructure is that if it's not good > for a 7 year old to ride on, it's not going to work for the general public. Bikes are children's toys, that's so... Saudi Arabia? I really consider this a terrible design principle, because nobody likes to be treated like a seven year old and doing so could be a serious disincentive against cycling for anyone but the most irrationally fearsome. Design for competent cyclists, everyone can eventually become one. If the result happens to good for the seven year old, fine, it'd not that unlikely if money and space permits it at all. If not, treat children like pedestrians and grant the appropriate exceptions in law for supervising adults. They are surely not the kind of cyclist who causes havoc on the sidewalk today (this won't work in exceptionally walked places like most of Manhattan, but there, nothing less than a complete network of elevated bikeways could be made even remotely child-proof while providing real transport and not just some recreational riding in a park).
- awjr 11y ago
  The issue is that people cycle despite the conditions and pavement cycling is illegal in some countries (UK). Also pavement cycling is slow and tedious compared to on-road cycling or within a dedicated cycle track. The idea of making a cycle route "child proof" is not to appeal to current cyclists, but to persuade people that want to cycle but feel the roads are just to dangerous to share them with buses, to get on a bike. Taking Bath, UK as an example, the river to the west of Bath has a shared use traffic free child friendly path that connects that area to the heart of the city with 12% of people cycling to work. A similar area without that connection on the east side is about 5% http://datashine.org.uk/#table=QS701EW&col=QS701EW0010&ramp=YlOrRd&layers=BTTT&zoom=14&lon=-2.3701&lat=51.3868 http://datashine.org.uk/#table=QS701EW&col=QS701EW0010&ramp=... This is all about persuading parents that it is safe to let their kids cycle to school as the roads are designed to accommodate that should a child fall off his bike they won't be killed by a car running them over. With that type of infrastructure in place you get a massive uptake.
  - usrusr 11y ago
    Cycling with children is slow and tedious, so it's a perfect fit. And yes, I was talking about changing the law. Here in Germany we are half way there, it's mandatory for children, but forbidden for their supervisors who are also not allowed to let younger children ride three unsupervised. Perfect catch 22.

by awjr 11y ago

hueving 11y ago

>In the UK obesity in boys is around 16%, in the Netherlands it's around 1.6%. Not to detract much from your larger point, but this is much more likely due to diet than cycling. If the UK is picking up eating habits similar to the US, the ~200 calories a day you might burn from a leisurely bike commute (can't be vigorous enough to cause sweating) isn't going to be enough to offset the big caloric imbalances that lead to obesity.

kaonashi 11y ago
How is ~10% of average daily caloric intake insignificant?
- IkmoIkmo 11y ago
  Exactly, especially when it's the last 10% that makes the most difference in deciding whether there's a caloric deficit, break-even or surplus, and that over time these small differences compound to radical changes in bodyweight.
- hueving 11y ago
  When you're 500 over, you need to recognize that biking isn't going to fix your problem. People pretend exercise just magically fixes obesity when it's rarely that close of an imbalance for obese (not overweight) people.
  - kaonashi 11y ago
    You'll gain weight at half the rate.
awjr 11y ago
I'm not saying kids are not fat in the Netherlands, just not obese. Something like 60% of kids cycle to school in the Netherlands. It's estimated that about 22% of rush hour in the UK is the school run. I'm trying to look at Cambridge obesity rates vs other cities to see if there is some correlation.
awjr 11y ago
EU obesity rates with the UK at 26% and Netherlands at 11%. Italy is even better, so diet is obviously a key factor. http://www.dw.com/en/rising-eu-obesity-rings-alarm-bells-in-brussels/a-16821112 http://www.dw.com/en/rising-eu-obesity-rings-alarm-bells-in-... I've looked at obesity studies in the UK and the child focused ones look at the location of fast food restaurants close to schools. I've never seen a study that looks at obesity rates and examines the Local Authorities transport policies. Cambridge, Bristol and some parts of London are possibly good control groups. I know Bath has better health than the UK average, but 27% of people walk to work.

usrusr 11y ago

> The other problem with cycle infrastructure is that if it's not good > for a 7 year old to ride on, it's not going to work for the general public. Bikes are children's toys, that's so... Saudi Arabia? I really consider this a terrible design principle, because nobody likes to be treated like a seven year old and doing so could be a serious disincentive against cycling for anyone but the most irrationally fearsome. Design for competent cyclists, everyone can eventually become one. If the result happens to good for the seven year old, fine, it'd not that unlikely if money and space permits it at all. If not, treat children like pedestrians and grant the appropriate exceptions in law for supervising adults. They are surely not the kind of cyclist who causes havoc on the sidewalk today (this won't work in exceptionally walked places like most of Manhattan, but there, nothing less than a complete network of elevated bikeways could be made even remotely child-proof while providing real transport and not just some recreational riding in a park).

awjr 11y ago
The issue is that people cycle despite the conditions and pavement cycling is illegal in some countries (UK). Also pavement cycling is slow and tedious compared to on-road cycling or within a dedicated cycle track. The idea of making a cycle route "child proof" is not to appeal to current cyclists, but to persuade people that want to cycle but feel the roads are just to dangerous to share them with buses, to get on a bike. Taking Bath, UK as an example, the river to the west of Bath has a shared use traffic free child friendly path that connects that area to the heart of the city with 12% of people cycling to work. A similar area without that connection on the east side is about 5% http://datashine.org.uk/#table=QS701EW&col=QS701EW0010&ramp=YlOrRd&layers=BTTT&zoom=14&lon=-2.3701&lat=51.3868 http://datashine.org.uk/#table=QS701EW&col=QS701EW0010&ramp=... This is all about persuading parents that it is safe to let their kids cycle to school as the roads are designed to accommodate that should a child fall off his bike they won't be killed by a car running them over. With that type of infrastructure in place you get a massive uptake.
- usrusr 11y ago
  Cycling with children is slow and tedious, so it's a perfect fit. And yes, I was talking about changing the law. Here in Germany we are half way there, it's mandatory for children, but forbidden for their supervisors who are also not allowed to let younger children ride three unsupervised. Perfect catch 22.