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I think they're saying all powertrains are going to be electric. A i3/Volt model is way more efficient because it's not wasting any energy in idle mode like tra

by msoad 11y ago

I think they're saying all powertrains are going to be electric. A i3/Volt model is way more efficient because it's not wasting any energy in idle mode like traditional model.

kylec 11y ago
The article specifically calls out that the 3 series will become a plug-in hybrid, so there will still be a gas engine directly powering the wheels, not just generating electricity.
- rconti 11y ago
  The term "hybrid" does not indicate that a gas engine powers the wheels directly. A series hybrid can have a gasoline or diesel motor that exists merely to charge the batteries, as in the i3 Range Extender version. The article specifically mentions the 3 series becoming a hybrid (not what type; the ActiveHybrid 3 and ActiveHybrid5 already exist for limited sale), but it also speculates: "The new range of cars could be driven by separate electric motors powering the front and rear wheels, with a small gasoline engine to generate electricity to extend the range of the batteries" So, basically, we don't know what their precise plans are, but the article does not indicate that the 3er will have a gas engine powering the wheels.
  - simpleuser1 11y ago
    Whatever their precise plans are, I hope this finally means we can stop paying attention to Hyperarrogant Elon. :)
    - voltagex_ 11y ago
      What a strange sentiment. Competition in this field will be excellent for consumers.
  - kylec 11y ago
    If you look at BMW's current marketing names for the i3 and the i8, it describes the i3, both with and without the REx, as "electric", whereas the i8 is a "plug-in hybrid", and does have a hybrid powertrain. Obviously it can be argued that the i3 with the REx is a hybrid, but it's clear to me that BMW intends to build an i8-like 3 series.
- masklinn 11y ago
  There will be a gas engine, but not powering the wheel, they're saying the 3 Series will be converted to an "electric drivetrain": the ICE only does electricity generation, transmission is electrical and only electric engines power the wheels (aka diesel-electric or "series" hybrid)
  - arethuza 11y ago
    So pretty much like the current i3 with the "Range Extender" option or the i8?
    - masklinn 11y ago
      Same principle, though in the RE i3 the ICE isn't intended to run most of the time, so the i8 is a better point of comparison: you can use it all-electric for short hops but most of the expected usage is with the ICE running and the battery serving as buffer & booster.
- ExpiredLink 11y ago
  >> BMW is now intends to convert all its vehicles to some configuration of plug-in hybrid. Yep, it's 'just' a "plug-in hybrid". Good for low emissions and high mileage ... on paper.
  - kpil 11y ago
    I'm perfectly happy with my Outlander PHEV as it reduced my real life fuel use to somewhere around 15%. It has a larger battery than most plugins, and my daily commute is 98% electric.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    http://www.voltstats.net/ http://www.voltstats.net/ Out of ~1300 Volts tracked, 70% of the miles traveled were EV only. Keep your snark out of facts.
    - nawitus 11y ago
      Those stats are likely biased towards having a larger percentage of EV only miles.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Regardless, plug-in hybrids do reduce greenhouse gas emissions and gasoline used. They were a nice stop-gap until battery tech has caught up, and now that it has, you'll see people move on to fully electric vehicles.
- dredmorbius 11y ago
  Could you clarify / source / double-check that? If you've got an electric drivetrain, adding a mechanical drivetrain: gearbox, driveshaft, differential, and powered axles, is a lot of additional weight. Powering a generator and transmitting power via electricity to the electric motors you've already got in the wheels makes a lot more sense.
kw71 11y ago
I know the 5 series has stop/start idle elimination now. Does the petrol 3 series?
- martin_bech 11y ago
  Yes, since 2008. Source my old car, a 318i 2008
  - rconti 11y ago
    And since at least the 2012 F30 3 series in the US, if not before then.
- benihana 11y ago
  I rented a diesel 2014 1 series in Ireland that had it. If a rental 1er had it I imagine it's standard on all their cars.
Shivetya 11y ago
anecdotal, my z4 28i has start/stop and it functions quite well. the 2.0l engine is very efficient overall and while I have not tested the mileage with start/stop off I am pretty sure it contributes to the good mileage I get from this sporty car. The start/stop works with the car in neutral and the clutch pedal not depressed; this is a six speed manual from 2012. US numbers, I track mine on fueleconomy.gov and I do about 32-34mpg commuting and a recent 1800 mile round trip averaged 38-40 at 65-80mph freeway. I could see electric motors taking the place of the drive shaft and trans axel arrangement. You could easily add "awd" to many cars by electrically powering the previously non drive wheels. The best use is launching as that is where my mileage dives. I am not a fan of the i3 because of the compromises made to the iRex for CARB regulations. A slightly larger engine and fuel capacity are warranted. Ideally what I would like to see for a car the size of mine; small 1 to 1.5l engine capable of driving the wheels direct after speed is reached with electric responsible for getting the car off from stop. Chevy does a great job with the Volt but I think batteries still have a long way to go considering the weight required for so little range most offerings have
- nawitus 11y ago
  Is the engine stopped while the car is moving? That would save even more fuel compared to only stopping the engine while stationary. A further improvement would involve starting the engine without using the starter motor when possible. I could do all that with my old car "manually", but I only tried it a few times.
  - smileysteve 11y ago
    With most fuel injected engines, the injectors turn 'off' on deceleration until ~1000 rpm where they kick back on.
    - nawitus 11y ago
      Do you mean they turn off while rolling in neutral or with the gear in? Sure, the injectors turn off when you're decelerating in gear, but that's true even if the car doesn't have a start-stop system. However, I was talking about the case of decelerating in neutral with a car having a start-stop-type system. Rolling in neutral is always more efficient if the fuel is also cut off, but often even with the car running on idle.
gambiting 11y ago
Pretty much every single new car comes with Start/Stop technology nowadays,so it's a bit of a moot point.
robbiep 11y ago
fuel consumption while idle is quite negligible particularly when it comes to a MPG calculation. My car (and actually all european models over the last few years) have auto-idle when stopped. My stats are that over the 10,000 km I have driven since new I have extended my range by 85 km in terms of saved fuel (so approximately 4 litres saved over 10,000 km, or approximately 4/700 (700l being total fuel comsumption over those 10,000 km). So i've saved half a percent of my total fuel consumption. Useless individually. But of course potentially enormous savings when rolled out to a fleet of thousands of cars
- Spooky23 11y ago
  Great point. I go to drive in movies frequently with a Honda Odyessy, and idle most most of the time with the AC and radio on. It lowers the tank's MPG by about 3-4 miles.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Would love to see drive-ins providing a 120 outlet at the speaker box for EVs to plug in at, for using AC, radio, etc while at the movie.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      EVs are great for "idling." Energy use by accessories is negligible compared to the capacity of the traction battery. Even climate control can be pretty reasonable. A Tesla can sit with the radio on and the air conditioner running and lose just a couple of miles of range per hour.
- larrys 11y ago
  With a Porsche Macan S (which has terrible gas mileage) I can see a noticeable difference whereby in cold weather temperature (doesn't auto idle much) vs. warm weather I see about 2 mpg difference in city driving. Haven't done any specific calculations but that is what I have been seeing.

by msoad 11y ago

I think they're saying all powertrains are going to be electric. A i3/Volt model is way more efficient because it's not wasting any energy in idle mode like traditional model.

kylec 11y ago

The article specifically calls out that the 3 series will become a plug-in hybrid, so there will still be a gas engine directly powering the wheels, not just generating electricity.

rconti 11y ago
The term "hybrid" does not indicate that a gas engine powers the wheels directly. A series hybrid can have a gasoline or diesel motor that exists merely to charge the batteries, as in the i3 Range Extender version. The article specifically mentions the 3 series becoming a hybrid (not what type; the ActiveHybrid 3 and ActiveHybrid5 already exist for limited sale), but it also speculates: "The new range of cars could be driven by separate electric motors powering the front and rear wheels, with a small gasoline engine to generate electricity to extend the range of the batteries" So, basically, we don't know what their precise plans are, but the article does not indicate that the 3er will have a gas engine powering the wheels.
- simpleuser1 11y ago
  Whatever their precise plans are, I hope this finally means we can stop paying attention to Hyperarrogant Elon. :)
  - voltagex_ 11y ago
    What a strange sentiment. Competition in this field will be excellent for consumers.
- kylec 11y ago
  If you look at BMW's current marketing names for the i3 and the i8, it describes the i3, both with and without the REx, as "electric", whereas the i8 is a "plug-in hybrid", and does have a hybrid powertrain. Obviously it can be argued that the i3 with the REx is a hybrid, but it's clear to me that BMW intends to build an i8-like 3 series.
masklinn 11y ago
There will be a gas engine, but not powering the wheel, they're saying the 3 Series will be converted to an "electric drivetrain": the ICE only does electricity generation, transmission is electrical and only electric engines power the wheels (aka diesel-electric or "series" hybrid)
- arethuza 11y ago
  So pretty much like the current i3 with the "Range Extender" option or the i8?
  - masklinn 11y ago
    Same principle, though in the RE i3 the ICE isn't intended to run most of the time, so the i8 is a better point of comparison: you can use it all-electric for short hops but most of the expected usage is with the ICE running and the battery serving as buffer & booster.
ExpiredLink 11y ago
>> BMW is now intends to convert all its vehicles to some configuration of plug-in hybrid. Yep, it's 'just' a "plug-in hybrid". Good for low emissions and high mileage ... on paper.
- kpil 11y ago
  I'm perfectly happy with my Outlander PHEV as it reduced my real life fuel use to somewhere around 15%. It has a larger battery than most plugins, and my daily commute is 98% electric.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  http://www.voltstats.net/ http://www.voltstats.net/ Out of ~1300 Volts tracked, 70% of the miles traveled were EV only. Keep your snark out of facts.
  - nawitus 11y ago
    Those stats are likely biased towards having a larger percentage of EV only miles.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      Regardless, plug-in hybrids do reduce greenhouse gas emissions and gasoline used. They were a nice stop-gap until battery tech has caught up, and now that it has, you'll see people move on to fully electric vehicles.
dredmorbius 11y ago
Could you clarify / source / double-check that? If you've got an electric drivetrain, adding a mechanical drivetrain: gearbox, driveshaft, differential, and powered axles, is a lot of additional weight. Powering a generator and transmitting power via electricity to the electric motors you've already got in the wheels makes a lot more sense.

kw71 11y ago

I know the 5 series has stop/start idle elimination now. Does the petrol 3 series?

martin_bech 11y ago
Yes, since 2008. Source my old car, a 318i 2008
- rconti 11y ago
  And since at least the 2012 F30 3 series in the US, if not before then.
benihana 11y ago
I rented a diesel 2014 1 series in Ireland that had it. If a rental 1er had it I imagine it's standard on all their cars.

Shivetya 11y ago

anecdotal, my z4 28i has start/stop and it functions quite well. the 2.0l engine is very efficient overall and while I have not tested the mileage with start/stop off I am pretty sure it contributes to the good mileage I get from this sporty car. The start/stop works with the car in neutral and the clutch pedal not depressed; this is a six speed manual from 2012. US numbers, I track mine on fueleconomy.gov and I do about 32-34mpg commuting and a recent 1800 mile round trip averaged 38-40 at 65-80mph freeway. I could see electric motors taking the place of the drive shaft and trans axel arrangement. You could easily add "awd" to many cars by electrically powering the previously non drive wheels. The best use is launching as that is where my mileage dives. I am not a fan of the i3 because of the compromises made to the iRex for CARB regulations. A slightly larger engine and fuel capacity are warranted. Ideally what I would like to see for a car the size of mine; small 1 to 1.5l engine capable of driving the wheels direct after speed is reached with electric responsible for getting the car off from stop. Chevy does a great job with the Volt but I think batteries still have a long way to go considering the weight required for so little range most offerings have

nawitus 11y ago
Is the engine stopped while the car is moving? That would save even more fuel compared to only stopping the engine while stationary. A further improvement would involve starting the engine without using the starter motor when possible. I could do all that with my old car "manually", but I only tried it a few times.
- smileysteve 11y ago
  With most fuel injected engines, the injectors turn 'off' on deceleration until ~1000 rpm where they kick back on.
  - nawitus 11y ago
    Do you mean they turn off while rolling in neutral or with the gear in? Sure, the injectors turn off when you're decelerating in gear, but that's true even if the car doesn't have a start-stop system. However, I was talking about the case of decelerating in neutral with a car having a start-stop-type system. Rolling in neutral is always more efficient if the fuel is also cut off, but often even with the car running on idle.

gambiting 11y ago

Pretty much every single new car comes with Start/Stop technology nowadays,so it's a bit of a moot point.

robbiep 11y ago

fuel consumption while idle is quite negligible particularly when it comes to a MPG calculation. My car (and actually all european models over the last few years) have auto-idle when stopped. My stats are that over the 10,000 km I have driven since new I have extended my range by 85 km in terms of saved fuel (so approximately 4 litres saved over 10,000 km, or approximately 4/700 (700l being total fuel comsumption over those 10,000 km). So i've saved half a percent of my total fuel consumption. Useless individually. But of course potentially enormous savings when rolled out to a fleet of thousands of cars

Spooky23 11y ago
Great point. I go to drive in movies frequently with a Honda Odyessy, and idle most most of the time with the AC and radio on. It lowers the tank's MPG by about 3-4 miles.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Would love to see drive-ins providing a 120 outlet at the speaker box for EVs to plug in at, for using AC, radio, etc while at the movie.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    EVs are great for "idling." Energy use by accessories is negligible compared to the capacity of the traction battery. Even climate control can be pretty reasonable. A Tesla can sit with the radio on and the air conditioner running and lose just a couple of miles of range per hour.
larrys 11y ago
With a Porsche Macan S (which has terrible gas mileage) I can see a noticeable difference whereby in cold weather temperature (doesn't auto idle much) vs. warm weather I see about 2 mpg difference in city driving. Haven't done any specific calculations but that is what I have been seeing.