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Also Kon-Tiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition

by loourr 11y ago

EdwardDiego 11y ago
Kon-Tiki was interesting, but I can't handle the implication of Heyerdahl's beliefs - that the Polynesian people, supreme sailors and navigators who travelled huge distances across the open ocean while Europeans were still hugging the coast, were somehow incapable of sailing to South America and back. We know that there has been some contact between the Americas and Polynesia, for example, the staple food of the Maori of New Zealand was the kumara, a sweet potato, which are native to the Americas. His main objection was based, I believe, on predominating currents and winds. However, in an El Nino year, the currents shift and winds shift, and there is evidence that Polynesian migrations eastward coincided with El Nino events.
- pacala 11y ago
  Australians != Polynesians. Polynesian migrations are relatively recent, starting 3000BC ~ 1000BC from Taiwan. They got to New Zealand and Easter Island only about 1200 AD, which is only 300 years before Columbus. I don't recall any evidence that they sailed all the way to the Americas between 1200AD and 1500 AD, the time of Pizzaro's conquest of the Inca Empire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia#Origins_and_expansion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia#Origins_and_expansio...
  - EdwardDiego 11y ago
    Yeah, I'm well aware of that fact, on account of living in New Zealand. ;) I was directly responding to the person I, erm, directly responded to, who posted a link to Kon-Tiki. > I don't recall any evidence that they sailed all the way to the Americas We have obvious evidence of contact between Polynesia and South America before the 1200s, as the Maori arrived in NZ in the 13th century with a sweet potato, as I mentioned. As for "all the way to the Americas", the distance from Rapanui/Easter Island to Chile is less than the distance from the Marquesas Islands to Hawaii (which was colonised in the 10th century), or from Tuabai / Tahiti / Cook Islands (whichever identity of 'Hawaiki' you prefer) to New Zealand. So, we have evidence that Polynesians contacted the Americas sometime before the 13th century, and we have evidence that the Polynesians were capable of navigating distances greater than that from Easter Island to Chile in the 10th century. I'm not aware of any evidence of any similar ocean-going prowess of South American natives, as such, Occam's Razor probably applies.
    - robbiep 11y ago
      It kind of makes you wonder if there was any contact between aboriginals and Maori. I was never taught anything at school, but the distances don't seem too far...?
      - EdwardDiego 11y ago
        There's evidence of Polynesian visitors to Norfolk Island, so it's entirely possible they went further afield, but in terms of the Maori doing it, it's less likely - once the archaic Maori arrived in New Zealand, and saw its abundant feathered protein, ample natural resources and space, their culture lost their ocean-going expertise reasonably quickly as it adapted to the very different environment of NZ - even when travelling between New Zealand's islands, Maori tended to use waka which were designed for lakes and rivers rather than the open ocean. Which makes the journey of the Moriori's ancestors from New Zealand to the Chatham Islands in the 1500s even more amazing.
        robbiep 11y ago
        Thanks. Fascinating.
        EdwardDiego 11y ago
        No worries, if you ever get interested in the history of the last populated landmass, I really recommend this book by one of our pre-eminent historians: http://www.penguin.co.nz/products/9780143567578/penguin-history-new-zealand http://www.penguin.co.nz/products/9780143567578/penguin-hist...
        deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
    - pacala 11y ago
      There are two points here: A. Polynesians are definitely not "first South Americans", regardless at which date the conjectured sweet potato journey happened. Simply because the other South Americans we know of arrived about 15,000 years ago, way before Polynesians even left Taiwan. B. "The distance from Rapanui/Easter Island to Chile is less than the distance from the Marquesas Islands to Hawaii", true. But since Polynesians reached Easter Island only in the 1200s, their conjectured sweet potato journey must have been either post 1200s, or much longer than the journey from Easter Island. As of the sweet potato, who knows how it got in Maori hands? Super alternative conjecture, maybe some people during the glacial age, beneficiary of low ocean levels, brought it to the islands, and Polynesians picked it up from there?

Also Kon-Tiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition

by loourr 11y ago

Also Kon-Tiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition

Kon-Tiki was interesting, but I can't handle the implication of Heyerdahl's beliefs - that the Polynesian people, supreme sailors and navigators who travelled huge distances across the open ocean while Europeans were still hugging the coast, were somehow incapable of sailing to South America and back. We know that there has been some contact between the Americas and Polynesia, for example, the staple food of the Maori of New Zealand was the kumara, a sweet potato, which are native to the Americas. His main objection was based, I believe, on predominating currents and winds. However, in an El Nino year, the currents shift and winds shift, and there is evidence that Polynesian migrations eastward coincided with El Nino events.

pacala 11y ago
Australians != Polynesians. Polynesian migrations are relatively recent, starting 3000BC ~ 1000BC from Taiwan. They got to New Zealand and Easter Island only about 1200 AD, which is only 300 years before Columbus. I don't recall any evidence that they sailed all the way to the Americas between 1200AD and 1500 AD, the time of Pizzaro's conquest of the Inca Empire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia#Origins_and_expansion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia#Origins_and_expansio...
- EdwardDiego 11y ago
  Yeah, I'm well aware of that fact, on account of living in New Zealand. ;) I was directly responding to the person I, erm, directly responded to, who posted a link to Kon-Tiki. > I don't recall any evidence that they sailed all the way to the Americas We have obvious evidence of contact between Polynesia and South America before the 1200s, as the Maori arrived in NZ in the 13th century with a sweet potato, as I mentioned. As for "all the way to the Americas", the distance from Rapanui/Easter Island to Chile is less than the distance from the Marquesas Islands to Hawaii (which was colonised in the 10th century), or from Tuabai / Tahiti / Cook Islands (whichever identity of 'Hawaiki' you prefer) to New Zealand. So, we have evidence that Polynesians contacted the Americas sometime before the 13th century, and we have evidence that the Polynesians were capable of navigating distances greater than that from Easter Island to Chile in the 10th century. I'm not aware of any evidence of any similar ocean-going prowess of South American natives, as such, Occam's Razor probably applies.
  - robbiep 11y ago
    It kind of makes you wonder if there was any contact between aboriginals and Maori. I was never taught anything at school, but the distances don't seem too far...?
    - EdwardDiego 11y ago
      There's evidence of Polynesian visitors to Norfolk Island, so it's entirely possible they went further afield, but in terms of the Maori doing it, it's less likely - once the archaic Maori arrived in New Zealand, and saw its abundant feathered protein, ample natural resources and space, their culture lost their ocean-going expertise reasonably quickly as it adapted to the very different environment of NZ - even when travelling between New Zealand's islands, Maori tended to use waka which were designed for lakes and rivers rather than the open ocean. Which makes the journey of the Moriori's ancestors from New Zealand to the Chatham Islands in the 1500s even more amazing.
      - robbiep 11y ago
        Thanks. Fascinating.
        EdwardDiego 11y ago
        No worries, if you ever get interested in the history of the last populated landmass, I really recommend this book by one of our pre-eminent historians: http://www.penguin.co.nz/products/9780143567578/penguin-history-new-zealand http://www.penguin.co.nz/products/9780143567578/penguin-hist...
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
  - pacala 11y ago
    There are two points here: A. Polynesians are definitely not "first South Americans", regardless at which date the conjectured sweet potato journey happened. Simply because the other South Americans we know of arrived about 15,000 years ago, way before Polynesians even left Taiwan. B. "The distance from Rapanui/Easter Island to Chile is less than the distance from the Marquesas Islands to Hawaii", true. But since Polynesians reached Easter Island only in the 1200s, their conjectured sweet potato journey must have been either post 1200s, or much longer than the journey from Easter Island. As of the sweet potato, who knows how it got in Maori hands? Super alternative conjecture, maybe some people during the glacial age, beneficiary of low ocean levels, brought it to the islands, and Polynesians picked it up from there?