2 ms·

I disagree with the specific point that taking the blame of others is at all moral or good or proper. It isn't even remotely the same thing as forgiveness. Eith

by cmurf 11y ago

I disagree with the specific point that taking the blame of others is at all moral or good or proper. It isn't even remotely the same thing as forgiveness. Either Christ was a scapegoat, an immoral transference of sin onto another to be ritualistically slaughtered; or Christ, as God (i.e. the trinity) who blamed himself for the mistake of creating man in the first place, is taking responsibility for this mistake and leaves his punishment up to the free will of humans who prove their miserableness with murder. So no matter how you look at this it doesn't make humans look particularly good let alone divine. And the very idea of original sin, which makes Christ's existence and death necessary, is immoral. The actions of others has absolutely zero rational transference to children. It's an allegory for why all humans are so wicked. It's a nasty story.

muraiki 11y ago
One of the difficulties in engaging in theological discussions is that we all come to the table with different interpretations of particular terms and ideas. I know that I began this discussion by criticizing one interpretation, but that is because the author's interpretation of the tree as containing scientific knowledge seemed to directly contradict the very name of the tree. What I present here is what the Orthodox Church has taught, rooted in ideas from St. Ignatius, a bishop in the first century. I say this not as some kind of appeal to authority, but only to make clear that what I express has been upheld and refined for nearly 2000 years. In the Orthodox Church, "original sin" isn't some sort of inherited guilt. Adam and Eve bear the guilt for their actions; the _ramification_ of their actions resulted in the disordering of all the cosmos, which is what all of humanity has sadly inherited. The Catholic (or perhaps more specifically Augustinian) idea that all share in the guilt of Adam is what leads to ideas like Christ needing to be a propitiatory sacrifice to appease an angry God. This idea is inconceivable in the Orthodox church. Nor does Christ exist only to reconcile original sin; He has always existed, and Orthodox theologians have said that if the fall had not occurred He still would have taken on flesh for the sake of uniting Himself with humanity. It is this union in the Incarnation that makes humans "divine": Christ is fully God and fully man; as St. Ignatius said, "God became man so that man might become like God." If the intent was only to "get people to heaven," meaning to put them in some specific place after death, then there were certainly easier ways to accomplish this. But God has in His eyes the beautification of His beloved. Christ's life is a perfect illustration not only of God's love but of the way in which all who follow Christ are empowered to walk. What we see in the Incarnation, Transfiguration, and Resurrection is what humanity is truly capable of: a love so powerful that it can annihilate death.

by cmurf 11y ago

muraiki 11y ago

One of the difficulties in engaging in theological discussions is that we all come to the table with different interpretations of particular terms and ideas. I know that I began this discussion by criticizing one interpretation, but that is because the author's interpretation of the tree as containing scientific knowledge seemed to directly contradict the very name of the tree. What I present here is what the Orthodox Church has taught, rooted in ideas from St. Ignatius, a bishop in the first century. I say this not as some kind of appeal to authority, but only to make clear that what I express has been upheld and refined for nearly 2000 years. In the Orthodox Church, "original sin" isn't some sort of inherited guilt. Adam and Eve bear the guilt for their actions; the _ramification_ of their actions resulted in the disordering of all the cosmos, which is what all of humanity has sadly inherited. The Catholic (or perhaps more specifically Augustinian) idea that all share in the guilt of Adam is what leads to ideas like Christ needing to be a propitiatory sacrifice to appease an angry God. This idea is inconceivable in the Orthodox church. Nor does Christ exist only to reconcile original sin; He has always existed, and Orthodox theologians have said that if the fall had not occurred He still would have taken on flesh for the sake of uniting Himself with humanity. It is this union in the Incarnation that makes humans "divine": Christ is fully God and fully man; as St. Ignatius said, "God became man so that man might become like God." If the intent was only to "get people to heaven," meaning to put them in some specific place after death, then there were certainly easier ways to accomplish this. But God has in His eyes the beautification of His beloved. Christ's life is a perfect illustration not only of God's love but of the way in which all who follow Christ are empowered to walk. What we see in the Incarnation, Transfiguration, and Resurrection is what humanity is truly capable of: a love so powerful that it can annihilate death.