5 ms·

I would be quite interested in understanding why people find death terrifying. I'm likely in a minority, but I look forward to death. That doesn't mean I'm su

by PakG1 11y ago

I would be quite interested in understanding why people find death terrifying. I'm likely in a minority, but I look forward to death. That doesn't mean I'm suicidal. It means that I view death as an important moment in my life, one that will force me to measure whether I'm satisfied with the way I lived my life. I'll no doubt have regrets, but I'll have smiles too. I could say that being a person of faith may influence my looking forward to death, but I imagine that even if I wasn't a person of faith, I'd still have a similar mindset. I am very curious why people would want to live forever on this earth. It seems like it'd become quite dreary and boring, especially if I gradually lose control over all my normal physical and mental functions.

JoshTriplett 11y ago
> I could say that being a person of faith may influence my looking forward to death Rather heavily, yes. For the sake of argument, to put yourself into someone else's position and understand it, consider how differently you might feel about death if it simply meant a permanent cessation of consciousness. No more thinking, ever; you're permanently and irrecoverably gone. Not "floating in a black void" nothingness, but "there is no you anymore" nothingness. Alternatively, if your faith includes the concept of a soul, imagine a soul being irrevocably destroyed; it didn't go anywhere, it was just lost. That might make it clearer why many people find death both terrifying and horrific, no matter whether it occurs at 20 or 120. > I am very curious why people would want to live forever on this earth. It seems like it'd become quite dreary and boring, I find it easy enough to imagine a few billion years worth of possibilities. There's always more to learn, to see, and to think. Even if you'd seen the entire universe, other people are a literally endless supply of novelty. And if you can't imagine an eternity of life interacting with other people in happiness, how exactly do you envision an afterlife? > especially if I gradually lose control over all my normal physical and mental functions. Living forever doesn't mean becoming increasingly decrepit. The same processes that create a hard stop at 120 are what make a 100-year-old systematically less healthy than a 25-year-old, and they require the same fixes. Anything that would successfully keep you alive forever must necessarily keep you free of age-related health complications forever.
- PakG1 11y ago
  Alternatively, if your faith includes the concept of a soul, imagine a soul being irrevocably destroyed; it didn't go anywhere, it was just lost. Yes, I'm trying to imagine that, and I don't see why it's such a big issue. This seems so contradictory to what people claim their philosophies to be. It's like the environment. People cry about how we're destroying the earth, but they're not actually worried about the earth. They're worried about themselves. It's like how Ian Malcolm comments derisively in The Lost World that humans may not survive, but the earth would be just find. Somewhere some microbes would survive underneath all the dirt blasted everywhere in the apocalypse, and life would start again. I can understand the concept of ceasing to exist. I have not had anyone be able to explain to me why that makes that person so afraid, other than the fact that it just does. And if you can't imagine an eternity of life interacting with other people in happiness, how exactly do you envision an afterlife? Hehe, well, I think that's the key point, isn't it? You're talking about interacting with other people in happiness for eternity. I specifically said "forever on this earth", not "forever, period". I don't think you can achieve what you're talking about on this earth. We've had centuries of modern civilization to figure out how to stop both large-scale wars and petty relationship spats, and it's debatable whether we'll reach a level that has no pain. Yes, we've gotten better, especially if you read some of the literature on the topic, but age-old problems remain and I find no reason to think that they'll one day disappear. Living forever doesn't mean becoming increasingly decrepit. The same processes that create a hard stop at 120 are what make a 100-year-old systematically less healthy than a 25-year-old, and they require the same fixes. Anything that would successfully keep you alive forever must necessarily keep you free of age-related health complications forever. I actually deal with my worries about this issue in a comment below. I think people go about this subject very selfishly without thinking of the greater consequences.
  - JoshTriplett 11y ago
    > I can understand the concept of ceasing to exist. I have not had anyone be able to explain to me why that makes that person so afraid, other than the fact that it just does. Hard to explain (surprising to even have to explain), but it seems worth a shot. Consider a degenerative mental disease like Alzheimer's; does the idea of suffering from that, or someone in your family suffering from that, bother you? Why? If the disease robbed you/them of all sense of self, including any part of you/them that would be bothered by it, does that mean there's no harm done because you/they are no longer aware of it? Assuming you find that concept as horrific as I do, then a more permanent loss of any "sense of self" should be quite analogous. Both are horrifying atrocities. Both need to stop. And I don't understand how the latter can seem any less horrific than the former. Yet far more attention is paid to the former, while a hundred and fifty thousand people die every day. > You're talking about interacting with other people in happiness for eternity. I specifically said "forever on this earth", not "forever, period". I don't think you can achieve what you're talking about on this earth. We've had centuries of modern civilization to figure out how to stop both large-scale wars and petty relationship spats, and it's debatable whether we'll reach a level that has no pain. Yes, we've gotten better, especially if you read some of the literature on the topic, but age-old problems remain and I find no reason to think that they'll one day disappear. Fixing mortality is one of many things that needs to happen. Given all the time in the world, I'm quite confident we can fix the various lesser problems (and next to mortality, everything is a lesser problem). Fixing scarcity would go a long way. AI (or something very much like it) seems like the surest path, though it requires a great deal of care to get right. And I don't see why we should be limited to "this earth", or "this universe" if it turns out there are others. Forever is a very long time. I have hope. And more importantly, I'm working towards those goals. > I actually deal with my worries about this issue in a comment below. I think people go about this subject very selfishly without thinking of the greater consequences. If you're referring to your comment about economic disparity making longevity a privilege: probably, but not for long. It's too important not to make universally available. And to be explicitly clear: I don't think anyone should die; I'm not just worried about myself or those I care about (though I'd be lying if I said I didn't care about them more). But I think it's entirely possible to build a world in which nobody dies. That itself may lead to problems, but they'll be problems worth having and worth solving, and we'll have plenty of time to solve them.
logfromblammo 11y ago
I don't find death at all terrifying. I'm mostly worried about how my death would impact those who survive me. Aside from that, I want to avoid death as long as possible, because I have not yet exhausted all the cool and interesting experiences I can enjoy while living. If you look forward to death, I interpret that as looking forward to a cessation of your personal responsibilities and increasing boredom with life in general. As for myself, I know that my death would permanently damage my kids, and it will still be about 16 more years before that cloud over my head dissipates. And I also want to play Elder Scrolls VI, and have a few more vacations, so there's also that. I don't actually want to live forever on this Earth. It may only last another couple billion years or so. In the long term, I'd like to depart for another planet, and possibly even reach it, to build a new world, then eventually move on to the next. I might just write books until I forget what I wrote, then read them all. Perhaps I will attempt to invent a new type of prurient entertainment never seen previously on any part of the Internet. I might move an entire planet by growing my entire food supply on its surface, and dumping my waste in a semi-stable orbit elsewhere. No description of any afterlife has ever sounded better to me than getting more out of real life. I never lacked in imagination enough to yearn for someone else's ideal fantasy.
6d0debc071 11y ago
I'm not terrified of death, in the abstract. You can't be terrified of something that you have no clear concept of, and I'm not quite so foolish as to invent something there to be scared of. The truth is I'm never there to be dead... that's what makes it death, the person not being anywhere any more. Nonetheless, I don't feel like I'm ever going to want to die. The world still has many bright and wonderful things and people, and I've not noticed the charm of existence wearing with time. The company of my loved ones, for example, is as fulfilling this year as it was last. If some day, hopefully in a far distant future, I should find existence has become unbearably dull, then I imagine it taking place while sitting upon the observation deck of a castle built on the face of a sun. Maybe that day would come, maybe it wouldn't. But to end after less than even a scant few millennia; to never get the chance to find out? It feels like rather a shame. What I can imagine is finding death preferable to a life of pain or tiredness. (Which is really no more than to say that I can see why people wouldn't want to age too much past their early twenties or suffer lasting injury.) But even then, I'd not want death any more than someone offered the choice between being shot in the leg or the head wants to be shot in the leg. Preferred is not the same as desired.
- PakG1 11y ago
  What I can imagine is finding death preferable to a life of pain or tiredness. Right, this. I suppose I am saying that old age makes pain and tiredness inevitable without significant genetic engineering and other mechanisms. And then I imagine that only the rich would be able to get those treatments, much like only the rich can afford difficult heart transplants, cancer treatments, etc. We already live in an unequal world where less fortunate people can't get medical treatment they need. To take it one step further and have only the less fortunate people die while the rich can continue living indefinitely through the ages is a world that scares me. Death is the great humbling equalizer until one day some geniuses make it not so. It's quite difficult for me to imagine that health care will become universal and free so that everyone can access this biotech no matter what status or class they are. Never say never, but the fairy tale land of Star Trek seems nigh impossible to achieve.

by PakG1 11y ago

JoshTriplett 11y ago

> I could say that being a person of faith may influence my looking forward to death Rather heavily, yes. For the sake of argument, to put yourself into someone else's position and understand it, consider how differently you might feel about death if it simply meant a permanent cessation of consciousness. No more thinking, ever; you're permanently and irrecoverably gone. Not "floating in a black void" nothingness, but "there is no you anymore" nothingness. Alternatively, if your faith includes the concept of a soul, imagine a soul being irrevocably destroyed; it didn't go anywhere, it was just lost. That might make it clearer why many people find death both terrifying and horrific, no matter whether it occurs at 20 or 120. > I am very curious why people would want to live forever on this earth. It seems like it'd become quite dreary and boring, I find it easy enough to imagine a few billion years worth of possibilities. There's always more to learn, to see, and to think. Even if you'd seen the entire universe, other people are a literally endless supply of novelty. And if you can't imagine an eternity of life interacting with other people in happiness, how exactly do you envision an afterlife? > especially if I gradually lose control over all my normal physical and mental functions. Living forever doesn't mean becoming increasingly decrepit. The same processes that create a hard stop at 120 are what make a 100-year-old systematically less healthy than a 25-year-old, and they require the same fixes. Anything that would successfully keep you alive forever must necessarily keep you free of age-related health complications forever.

PakG1 11y ago
Alternatively, if your faith includes the concept of a soul, imagine a soul being irrevocably destroyed; it didn't go anywhere, it was just lost. Yes, I'm trying to imagine that, and I don't see why it's such a big issue. This seems so contradictory to what people claim their philosophies to be. It's like the environment. People cry about how we're destroying the earth, but they're not actually worried about the earth. They're worried about themselves. It's like how Ian Malcolm comments derisively in The Lost World that humans may not survive, but the earth would be just find. Somewhere some microbes would survive underneath all the dirt blasted everywhere in the apocalypse, and life would start again. I can understand the concept of ceasing to exist. I have not had anyone be able to explain to me why that makes that person so afraid, other than the fact that it just does. And if you can't imagine an eternity of life interacting with other people in happiness, how exactly do you envision an afterlife? Hehe, well, I think that's the key point, isn't it? You're talking about interacting with other people in happiness for eternity. I specifically said "forever on this earth", not "forever, period". I don't think you can achieve what you're talking about on this earth. We've had centuries of modern civilization to figure out how to stop both large-scale wars and petty relationship spats, and it's debatable whether we'll reach a level that has no pain. Yes, we've gotten better, especially if you read some of the literature on the topic, but age-old problems remain and I find no reason to think that they'll one day disappear. Living forever doesn't mean becoming increasingly decrepit. The same processes that create a hard stop at 120 are what make a 100-year-old systematically less healthy than a 25-year-old, and they require the same fixes. Anything that would successfully keep you alive forever must necessarily keep you free of age-related health complications forever. I actually deal with my worries about this issue in a comment below. I think people go about this subject very selfishly without thinking of the greater consequences.
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  > I can understand the concept of ceasing to exist. I have not had anyone be able to explain to me why that makes that person so afraid, other than the fact that it just does. Hard to explain (surprising to even have to explain), but it seems worth a shot. Consider a degenerative mental disease like Alzheimer's; does the idea of suffering from that, or someone in your family suffering from that, bother you? Why? If the disease robbed you/them of all sense of self, including any part of you/them that would be bothered by it, does that mean there's no harm done because you/they are no longer aware of it? Assuming you find that concept as horrific as I do, then a more permanent loss of any "sense of self" should be quite analogous. Both are horrifying atrocities. Both need to stop. And I don't understand how the latter can seem any less horrific than the former. Yet far more attention is paid to the former, while a hundred and fifty thousand people die every day. > You're talking about interacting with other people in happiness for eternity. I specifically said "forever on this earth", not "forever, period". I don't think you can achieve what you're talking about on this earth. We've had centuries of modern civilization to figure out how to stop both large-scale wars and petty relationship spats, and it's debatable whether we'll reach a level that has no pain. Yes, we've gotten better, especially if you read some of the literature on the topic, but age-old problems remain and I find no reason to think that they'll one day disappear. Fixing mortality is one of many things that needs to happen. Given all the time in the world, I'm quite confident we can fix the various lesser problems (and next to mortality, everything is a lesser problem). Fixing scarcity would go a long way. AI (or something very much like it) seems like the surest path, though it requires a great deal of care to get right. And I don't see why we should be limited to "this earth", or "this universe" if it turns out there are others. Forever is a very long time. I have hope. And more importantly, I'm working towards those goals. > I actually deal with my worries about this issue in a comment below. I think people go about this subject very selfishly without thinking of the greater consequences. If you're referring to your comment about economic disparity making longevity a privilege: probably, but not for long. It's too important not to make universally available. And to be explicitly clear: I don't think anyone should die; I'm not just worried about myself or those I care about (though I'd be lying if I said I didn't care about them more). But I think it's entirely possible to build a world in which nobody dies. That itself may lead to problems, but they'll be problems worth having and worth solving, and we'll have plenty of time to solve them.

logfromblammo 11y ago

I don't find death at all terrifying. I'm mostly worried about how my death would impact those who survive me. Aside from that, I want to avoid death as long as possible, because I have not yet exhausted all the cool and interesting experiences I can enjoy while living. If you look forward to death, I interpret that as looking forward to a cessation of your personal responsibilities and increasing boredom with life in general. As for myself, I know that my death would permanently damage my kids, and it will still be about 16 more years before that cloud over my head dissipates. And I also want to play Elder Scrolls VI, and have a few more vacations, so there's also that. I don't actually want to live forever on this Earth. It may only last another couple billion years or so. In the long term, I'd like to depart for another planet, and possibly even reach it, to build a new world, then eventually move on to the next. I might just write books until I forget what I wrote, then read them all. Perhaps I will attempt to invent a new type of prurient entertainment never seen previously on any part of the Internet. I might move an entire planet by growing my entire food supply on its surface, and dumping my waste in a semi-stable orbit elsewhere. No description of any afterlife has ever sounded better to me than getting more out of real life. I never lacked in imagination enough to yearn for someone else's ideal fantasy.

6d0debc071 11y ago

I'm not terrified of death, in the abstract. You can't be terrified of something that you have no clear concept of, and I'm not quite so foolish as to invent something there to be scared of. The truth is I'm never there to be dead... that's what makes it death, the person not being anywhere any more. Nonetheless, I don't feel like I'm ever going to want to die. The world still has many bright and wonderful things and people, and I've not noticed the charm of existence wearing with time. The company of my loved ones, for example, is as fulfilling this year as it was last. If some day, hopefully in a far distant future, I should find existence has become unbearably dull, then I imagine it taking place while sitting upon the observation deck of a castle built on the face of a sun. Maybe that day would come, maybe it wouldn't. But to end after less than even a scant few millennia; to never get the chance to find out? It feels like rather a shame. What I can imagine is finding death preferable to a life of pain or tiredness. (Which is really no more than to say that I can see why people wouldn't want to age too much past their early twenties or suffer lasting injury.) But even then, I'd not want death any more than someone offered the choice between being shot in the leg or the head wants to be shot in the leg. Preferred is not the same as desired.

PakG1 11y ago
What I can imagine is finding death preferable to a life of pain or tiredness. Right, this. I suppose I am saying that old age makes pain and tiredness inevitable without significant genetic engineering and other mechanisms. And then I imagine that only the rich would be able to get those treatments, much like only the rich can afford difficult heart transplants, cancer treatments, etc. We already live in an unequal world where less fortunate people can't get medical treatment they need. To take it one step further and have only the less fortunate people die while the rich can continue living indefinitely through the ages is a world that scares me. Death is the great humbling equalizer until one day some geniuses make it not so. It's quite difficult for me to imagine that health care will become universal and free so that everyone can access this biotech no matter what status or class they are. Never say never, but the fairy tale land of Star Trek seems nigh impossible to achieve.