4 ms·

How is this not considered fraud?

logfromblammo 11y ago
Proving it would require the cooperation of witnesses and aggrieved parties who would be publicly embarrassed if they were to provide testimony. So it's usually safer to cheat someone if you can do so in a manner that would also humiliate them if their role in the con was exposed. They discount what they lost by the price of their own dignity and reputation.
- reagency 11y ago
  That is true, but the world is big and there are people who (1) wouldn't be ashamed, (2) could do it as an intentional investigation. And the crooks can't detect those people in advance.
Alupis 11y ago
> How is this not considered fraud? It's in the fine print usually that some accounts are there for "entertainment purposes". I think it would be naive to not suspect these sites of having a very skewed male subscribership in addition to using chat bots or paid people to engage customers.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Placing some text in tiny print does not absolve you of fraud. It may actually be evidence of fraud.
  - Alupis 11y ago
    > Placing some text in tiny print does not absolve you of fraud. It may actually be evidence of fraud. You agree to the terms and conditions upon account creation, even if you don't read them. A person's ignorance and naivety is not evidence of fraud.
    - byset 11y ago
      The T&C did not say or imply that ~100% of the womens' accounts were fake. Plus you can't rely on fine print in the T&C to absolve you of engaging in a fraudulent business relationship, that's not how contracts are enforced.
      - Alupis 11y ago
        > The T&C did not say or imply that ~100% of the womens' accounts were fake. Nor did the T&C say or imply that any percent of the account will be genuine, or that there would be plenty of male and female accounts. The customers paid for the ability to read messages sent to them by anyone (employee, bot or real person), nothing more. Assuming something when you've been explicitly told otherwise but chose to ignore it does not equate to fraud. A person's naivety and ignorance don't equate to being defrauded.
        jsprogrammer 11y ago
        What? Their landing page says: >Ashley Madison is the most famous name in infidelity and married dating. Their Google ads say: >Have an affair -- Guaranteed Only conclusion to draw here is that you are a bot.
        Alupis 11y ago
        5. Other Aspects of the Ashley Madison Service – For Your Entertainment Our Site and our Service gives users the opportunity to explore their fantasies and to interact with others in the Site. However, there is no guarantee you will find a date or partner on our Site or using our Service. Our Site and our Service also is geared to provide you with amusement and entertainment. You agree that some of the features of our Site and our Service are intended to provide entertainment. Others Using the Site for Entertainment You also understand and agree that there are users and members on the Site that use and subscribe to our Service for purely entertainment purposes. Those users and subscribers are not seeking physical meetings with anyone they meet on the Service, but consider their communications with users and members to be for their amusement. You acknowledge and agree that any profiles of users and members, as well as, communications from such persons may not be true, accurate or authentic and may be exaggerated or fantasy. You acknowledge and understand that you may be communicating with such persons and that we are not responsible for such communications. https://www.ashleymadison.com/app/public/tandc.p https://www.ashleymadison.com/app/public/tandc.p Seems pretty clear to me - absolutely no claim you will actually find someone to "hook-up" with. Absolutely states there are accounts being used that have no interest in you other than for entertainment purposes (ie. keeping you engaged). No fraud here, only bruised egos.
- byset 11y ago
  Still fraud, methinks. Having some accounts for "entertainment purposes" accounts is one thing, taking money from men -- with an "affair guarantee" at the top tier -- to let them message "women" nearly 100% of whose accounts are fake is another. As the writer of the Gizmodo exposes said, it was like cheating Farmville.
  - Alupis 11y ago
    Again, it said all this was happening in clear text, in the terms and conditions likely few read. Other comments have even mentioned there was a setting in the account which would toggle off (opt-out) of receiving the bogus account messages... but few people probably made that setting either. Ashley Madison didn't invent dating sites, and certainly didn't invent this MO. I'd wager it's pretty standard for all dating sites. AM just happened to be the first (or most prominent?) dating site that advertised having an affair/cheating. I see no fraud here -- only bruised egos, a few ruined marriages, and the embarrassing truth that some men will go to extreme lengths to speak with women, even when it flies in the face of absurdity.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    One interesting tidbit that I came across in all of this is that the "affair guarantee" itself is its own little scam. The way it works is that if you don't hook up within the specified time (I believe it's 120 days) then they refund your money. And technically speaking, this is not a lie. What they don't tell you is that they process the refund in the form of a check, with their name on it, mailed to your home address. Given that the entire concept of the site is to attract users who want to keep their activity secret from the people they live with, how many people will actually go through with asking for their guarantee to be honored? (I know that there are legitimate uses of the site that don't require going behind your spouse's back. But it's pretty clear that most of their user base was using it that way.)
adevine 11y ago
Note the Ashley Madison wiki page says that these BS accounts are actually presented in the terms and conditions. I'm kind of impressed with the hutzpah of even giving these fake accounts the name "Ashley's Angels": Several aspects of Ashley Madison are described in the Terms and Conditions as "For Your Entertainment."[19] This included Ashley's Angels, a feature that generated fictitious profiles to simulate communication with real members and perform market research. According to the site, Ashley's Angels accounts "are NOT conspicuously identified as such."[20] Ashley's Angels profiles were limited to messaging only guest accounts and users could opt out of the feature via their profile management page. Users were charged the standard rate to read messages from and chat with these fictitious profiles.
- kbenson 11y ago
  Actually, I can sort of accept that. I'm sure people would be upset to find they were chatting with a fictitious account, but I'm also sure AM made the chats entertaining and flattering. The question is whether they actively lead the men to believe there was a real chance of a hookup, and how much leading is bad and how much is normal and how a flirtatious women would act? I guess AM would actually have stats on that based on real female profiles.
  - byset 11y ago
    The highest paid tier, for $249, includes an "Affair Guarantee." You could still claim that even so, men are just paying for a fantasy, but at those prices, and with the supposed "guarantee," they seem to venturing into fraud territory.
    - anaptdemise 11y ago
      This is the study of human nature in all this that I find most amusing. For $249, there are much more straight forward and guaranteed ways to have an affair. Even if affair is not insinuating sex, which I'm pretty sure most guys would assume, how is this not paying for sex in their mind? One would also assume the few real women are most likely prostitutes/escorts anyways.

Proving it would require the cooperation of witnesses and aggrieved parties who would be publicly embarrassed if they were to provide testimony. So it's usually safer to cheat someone if you can do so in a manner that would also humiliate them if their role in the con was exposed. They discount what they lost by the price of their own dignity and reputation.

reagency 11y ago
That is true, but the world is big and there are people who (1) wouldn't be ashamed, (2) could do it as an intentional investigation. And the crooks can't detect those people in advance.

Alupis 11y ago

> How is this not considered fraud? It's in the fine print usually that some accounts are there for "entertainment purposes". I think it would be naive to not suspect these sites of having a very skewed male subscribership in addition to using chat bots or paid people to engage customers.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
Placing some text in tiny print does not absolve you of fraud. It may actually be evidence of fraud.
- Alupis 11y ago
  > Placing some text in tiny print does not absolve you of fraud. It may actually be evidence of fraud. You agree to the terms and conditions upon account creation, even if you don't read them. A person's ignorance and naivety is not evidence of fraud.
  - byset 11y ago
    The T&C did not say or imply that ~100% of the womens' accounts were fake. Plus you can't rely on fine print in the T&C to absolve you of engaging in a fraudulent business relationship, that's not how contracts are enforced.
    - Alupis 11y ago
      > The T&C did not say or imply that ~100% of the womens' accounts were fake. Nor did the T&C say or imply that any percent of the account will be genuine, or that there would be plenty of male and female accounts. The customers paid for the ability to read messages sent to them by anyone (employee, bot or real person), nothing more. Assuming something when you've been explicitly told otherwise but chose to ignore it does not equate to fraud. A person's naivety and ignorance don't equate to being defrauded.
      - jsprogrammer 11y ago
        What? Their landing page says: >Ashley Madison is the most famous name in infidelity and married dating. Their Google ads say: >Have an affair -- Guaranteed Only conclusion to draw here is that you are a bot.
        Alupis 11y ago
        5. Other Aspects of the Ashley Madison Service – For Your Entertainment Our Site and our Service gives users the opportunity to explore their fantasies and to interact with others in the Site. However, there is no guarantee you will find a date or partner on our Site or using our Service. Our Site and our Service also is geared to provide you with amusement and entertainment. You agree that some of the features of our Site and our Service are intended to provide entertainment. Others Using the Site for Entertainment You also understand and agree that there are users and members on the Site that use and subscribe to our Service for purely entertainment purposes. Those users and subscribers are not seeking physical meetings with anyone they meet on the Service, but consider their communications with users and members to be for their amusement. You acknowledge and agree that any profiles of users and members, as well as, communications from such persons may not be true, accurate or authentic and may be exaggerated or fantasy. You acknowledge and understand that you may be communicating with such persons and that we are not responsible for such communications. https://www.ashleymadison.com/app/public/tandc.p https://www.ashleymadison.com/app/public/tandc.p Seems pretty clear to me - absolutely no claim you will actually find someone to "hook-up" with. Absolutely states there are accounts being used that have no interest in you other than for entertainment purposes (ie. keeping you engaged). No fraud here, only bruised egos.
byset 11y ago
Still fraud, methinks. Having some accounts for "entertainment purposes" accounts is one thing, taking money from men -- with an "affair guarantee" at the top tier -- to let them message "women" nearly 100% of whose accounts are fake is another. As the writer of the Gizmodo exposes said, it was like cheating Farmville.
- Alupis 11y ago
  Again, it said all this was happening in clear text, in the terms and conditions likely few read. Other comments have even mentioned there was a setting in the account which would toggle off (opt-out) of receiving the bogus account messages... but few people probably made that setting either. Ashley Madison didn't invent dating sites, and certainly didn't invent this MO. I'd wager it's pretty standard for all dating sites. AM just happened to be the first (or most prominent?) dating site that advertised having an affair/cheating. I see no fraud here -- only bruised egos, a few ruined marriages, and the embarrassing truth that some men will go to extreme lengths to speak with women, even when it flies in the face of absurdity.
- mikeash 11y ago
  One interesting tidbit that I came across in all of this is that the "affair guarantee" itself is its own little scam. The way it works is that if you don't hook up within the specified time (I believe it's 120 days) then they refund your money. And technically speaking, this is not a lie. What they don't tell you is that they process the refund in the form of a check, with their name on it, mailed to your home address. Given that the entire concept of the site is to attract users who want to keep their activity secret from the people they live with, how many people will actually go through with asking for their guarantee to be honored? (I know that there are legitimate uses of the site that don't require going behind your spouse's back. But it's pretty clear that most of their user base was using it that way.)

adevine 11y ago

Note the Ashley Madison wiki page says that these BS accounts are actually presented in the terms and conditions. I'm kind of impressed with the hutzpah of even giving these fake accounts the name "Ashley's Angels": Several aspects of Ashley Madison are described in the Terms and Conditions as "For Your Entertainment."[19] This included Ashley's Angels, a feature that generated fictitious profiles to simulate communication with real members and perform market research. According to the site, Ashley's Angels accounts "are NOT conspicuously identified as such."[20] Ashley's Angels profiles were limited to messaging only guest accounts and users could opt out of the feature via their profile management page. Users were charged the standard rate to read messages from and chat with these fictitious profiles.

kbenson 11y ago
Actually, I can sort of accept that. I'm sure people would be upset to find they were chatting with a fictitious account, but I'm also sure AM made the chats entertaining and flattering. The question is whether they actively lead the men to believe there was a real chance of a hookup, and how much leading is bad and how much is normal and how a flirtatious women would act? I guess AM would actually have stats on that based on real female profiles.
- byset 11y ago
  The highest paid tier, for $249, includes an "Affair Guarantee." You could still claim that even so, men are just paying for a fantasy, but at those prices, and with the supposed "guarantee," they seem to venturing into fraud territory.
  - anaptdemise 11y ago
    This is the study of human nature in all this that I find most amusing. For $249, there are much more straight forward and guaranteed ways to have an affair. Even if affair is not insinuating sex, which I'm pretty sure most guys would assume, how is this not paying for sex in their mind? One would also assume the few real women are most likely prostitutes/escorts anyways.