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> Think of it like Wal-Mart: it may provide jobs and cheaper goods to a community, but the wealth is a net outflow towards the Walton family Providing jobs and

by jbuzbee 11y ago

> Think of it like Wal-Mart: it may provide jobs and cheaper goods to a community, but the wealth is a net outflow towards the Walton family Providing jobs and cheaper goods to the community sounds like it's putting wealth into the pockets of the community to me. If you can buy a gallon of milk for the kids cheaper at Walmart then you can at the corner store, you have extra money for school supplies, medicine, etc. >Europe as a whole is much more concerned with quality of life than America Sorry, I have to roll my eyes at that comment and move on...

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
1: Unless Wal-Mart sells literally everything (health insurance, higher education, etc), then proprietors of other kinds of businesses will be hurt because average incomes have gone down. Milk may be cheaper but getting a contractor to tile my roof isn't. 2: Go to, say, Ravenna, Italy, and try to get a drink after midnight and on a weekday. You can't. The people there would rather all be on the same schedule (espresso for breakfast, big lunch with the family, work till evening, late dinner, then a stroll around town) instead of having their friendships and families be separated by the graveyard shift. As a hungry American at 2AM it was an inconvenience, but overall it works and people are happy. If you're still unconvinced, ask a European what they think of paid parental leave, month-long vacations (inb4 productivity argument, Germany offers much longer vacations than America and has higher productivity per worker), national single-payer health care...I could go on. If Americans really, really cared about these things, we would have them by now.
- jbuzbee 11y ago
  > 2: Go to, say, Ravenna, Italy Not to pick on Italy, but: http://ycharts.com/indicators/italy_youth_unemployment_rate_lfs http://ycharts.com/indicators/italy_youth_unemployment_rate_... So I wouldn't exactly want to model my economy on Italy. >If you're still unconvinced, ask a European... I've spent a lot of time in Europe and had long discussions in the pubs. Great times, nice folks, and I look forward to visiting again. but I still prefer the US.
  - rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
    You're still missing the point. My family in Gaeta knows the economy has been rough for a while, and yet their (and Italy's) strong social ties have kept society together in ways GDP and unemployment figures can't measure. Contrast with China, where growth is less than double digits and everybody's losing their mind. GDP doesn't explain why someone on the street dying from a car crash can be ignored by hundreds of people who walk by because they don't want to get involved in something that isn't their problem (punitive laws that potentially transfer liabilities to involved bystanders don't help). Society is more than economy. People often choose benefits to their society that tax economic growth, like preventing acid rain. If something seems irrevocably inconsistent about someone's decision, then I question the extent to which you choose to think from their perspective.
  - andybak 11y ago
    Just by way of comparison - Brit here. I'd choose to move to many countries over the US for various reasons: 1. Health care cost 2. Crime (especially violent and gun crime) 3. The lack of a political center ground or any sensible centrist discourse. 4. And of course - broadband and mobile data cost/speed ;-) (* http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-King... - although I'm sure those statistics are massively affected by area)
icehawk219 11y ago
Except that everyone going to Wal-Mart for the cheaper goods has driven you out of a job because most of the stores in the area are now shut down and your significant other who does work at Wal-Mart makes exactly minimum wage and not a penny more. So your income is decimated and you have no extra money for school supplies, medicine, etc. Which is why the majority of Wal-Mart's employees are on government assistance. And now the rest of the community faces higher taxes to provide a greater security net. But hey, at least you saved $0.10 on that gallon of milk.

by jbuzbee 11y ago

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago

1: Unless Wal-Mart sells literally everything (health insurance, higher education, etc), then proprietors of other kinds of businesses will be hurt because average incomes have gone down. Milk may be cheaper but getting a contractor to tile my roof isn't. 2: Go to, say, Ravenna, Italy, and try to get a drink after midnight and on a weekday. You can't. The people there would rather all be on the same schedule (espresso for breakfast, big lunch with the family, work till evening, late dinner, then a stroll around town) instead of having their friendships and families be separated by the graveyard shift. As a hungry American at 2AM it was an inconvenience, but overall it works and people are happy. If you're still unconvinced, ask a European what they think of paid parental leave, month-long vacations (inb4 productivity argument, Germany offers much longer vacations than America and has higher productivity per worker), national single-payer health care...I could go on. If Americans really, really cared about these things, we would have them by now.

jbuzbee 11y ago
> 2: Go to, say, Ravenna, Italy Not to pick on Italy, but: http://ycharts.com/indicators/italy_youth_unemployment_rate_lfs http://ycharts.com/indicators/italy_youth_unemployment_rate_... So I wouldn't exactly want to model my economy on Italy. >If you're still unconvinced, ask a European... I've spent a lot of time in Europe and had long discussions in the pubs. Great times, nice folks, and I look forward to visiting again. but I still prefer the US.
- rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
  You're still missing the point. My family in Gaeta knows the economy has been rough for a while, and yet their (and Italy's) strong social ties have kept society together in ways GDP and unemployment figures can't measure. Contrast with China, where growth is less than double digits and everybody's losing their mind. GDP doesn't explain why someone on the street dying from a car crash can be ignored by hundreds of people who walk by because they don't want to get involved in something that isn't their problem (punitive laws that potentially transfer liabilities to involved bystanders don't help). Society is more than economy. People often choose benefits to their society that tax economic growth, like preventing acid rain. If something seems irrevocably inconsistent about someone's decision, then I question the extent to which you choose to think from their perspective.
- andybak 11y ago
  Just by way of comparison - Brit here. I'd choose to move to many countries over the US for various reasons: 1. Health care cost 2. Crime (especially violent and gun crime) 3. The lack of a political center ground or any sensible centrist discourse. 4. And of course - broadband and mobile data cost/speed ;-) (* http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-King... - although I'm sure those statistics are massively affected by area)

icehawk219 11y ago

Except that everyone going to Wal-Mart for the cheaper goods has driven you out of a job because most of the stores in the area are now shut down and your significant other who does work at Wal-Mart makes exactly minimum wage and not a penny more. So your income is decimated and you have no extra money for school supplies, medicine, etc. Which is why the majority of Wal-Mart's employees are on government assistance. And now the rest of the community faces higher taxes to provide a greater security net. But hey, at least you saved $0.10 on that gallon of milk.