5 ms·

Bronze Age Greek city found underwater

82 points by happyscrappy 11y ago

arca_vorago 11y ago
This really reinforce something I have thought for some time now, mainly that due to sea level changes, many ancient sites are now underwater. I even have a pet theory about Atlantis, which I will repost from /r/AskHistorians: "Though it is probably confirmation bias due to my particular interest in Sumer, there is much evidence that what is now the Persian Gulf was flooded quite suddenly, With evidence that many of the settlements post-flood were quickly setup, in places where formerly only nomad hunter/gatherers lived. What you have to consider is the origin of the myth when compared to the archeology. The myth starts with Plato, who cites Solon visiting Sais, Egypt and learning of Atlantis. Plato says Atlantis existed about 9600 BC. My theory goes like this: What Plato/Solon called Atlantis is actually the civilization that once existed in the unflooded persian gulf, from which refuges of the flood fled to surrounding areas (and further) and brought with them the knowledge of civilization they possessed. When I say civilization, I mean the transition from hunter/gatherer society to agricultural society, and possibly writing/proto-writing. (Not the super civilization myth many imagine it as) Allow me to explain and support this assertion as best I can. The Egyptian town Solon visited was the home town of the goddess Neith as far back as 3000 BC, and it was the priests of Neith which gave him the information about Atlantis. Neith is likely to be associated with the god Tanit, who in turn may be associated with the Akkadian god Ishtar, which is actually the counterpart of the Sumerian Inanna. That's a lot of connections to make, but what does it matter relevant to this? Well, it matters in two main ways. First, the greek Athena (and hence Athens) is actually derived from, if the above connection is true, the Sumerian Inanna. Plato/Solon placed too much importance on this connection, and in seeking to tie their Athens to the myth of Atlantis, fouled the myth up a bit. (The part about Atlantis and a war with Athens) This is why for so long before the good science of plate tectonics and geology Atlantis was sought in places it could never have been, such as the Atlantic and Mediterranean. The real connection is Sumeria and before. The second part about why the Sumerian connection is so important is purely about timelines. If indeed there was a flood in the Persian Gulf as some of the recent science suggests, at around 8000 BC, it could possibly match the Sumerian King's list, which states there was a flood roughly that long ago. (the oldest king on the list verified is back to about 2600 BC, past that the list itself is the only source, which is why I say roughly) So I find it highly likely that much of the ancient history known by the priests of Sais that told Solon about Atlantis is actually the slightly adopted and modified version of the Sumerian flood myth, and this is supported by the study of the evolution of Egyptian religion/history as supported by archaeology. So there you have it. My theory that the flooded southern tip of the fertile crescent at about 8000 BC is the true "Atlantis". Feel free to poke holes in it or make corrections for any sloppiness on my part. This is something I have thought about for a while but just now put into words. The key thing I would focus on to expand this would be the writings of Plato regarding Solon. I have heard that it was a mistranslation that Plato said 9000 years and that it really reads 900 years, but I have not yet been able to find out where the original text is to ask to for a picture in order confirm/deny this." http://phys.org/news/2010-12-lost-civilization-persian-gulf.html http://phys.org/news/2010-12-lost-civilization-persian-gulf.... http://www.livescience.com/10340-lost-civilization-existed-beneath-persian-gulf.html http://www.livescience.com/10340-lost-civilization-existed-b... http://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Sarepta-Phoenician-City-Excavations/dp/0691002134 http://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Sarepta-Phoenician-City-Exc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List http://www.academia.edu/386944/New_Light_on_Human_Prehistory_in_the_Arabo-Persian_Gulf_Oasis http://www.academia.edu/386944/New_Light_on_Human_Prehistory...
- mc32 11y ago
  My limited history told me that it wasn't so much sea level rise as much as land level drop mostly caused by ground movement, aka earthquakes.
  - arethuza 11y ago
    It doesn't even require big earthquakes - the pillars of the Macellum of Pozzuoli are famous because they show that the ground sank down to submerge them and them rose back up again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macellum_of_Pozzuoli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macellum_of_Pozzuoli
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  "The key thing I would focus on to expand this would be the writings of Plato regarding Solon. I have heard that it was a mistranslation that Plato said 9000 years and that it really reads 900 years, but I have not yet been able to find out where the original text is to ask to for a picture in order confirm/deny this" You want the Loeb Classical Library: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/collection.php?cpk=1031 http://www.hup.harvard.edu/collection.php?cpk=1031
  - arca_vorago 11y ago
    Thank you for that! I'm no archaeologist or historian but I love ancient history so this is going to be my weekend reading.
    - ashark 11y ago
      Free, online: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/collection?collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/collection?collection=Pe... Plato's ~80% of the way down the page. Excellent resource for comparing original Greek and Latin text to various translations, in order to pick the one you want to read.
      - 11y ago
SloopJon 11y ago
The picture of the photovoltaic deck led me to a page describing a catamaran powered exclusively by 512 square meters of solar panels: http://www.planetsolar.org/boat/sections/the_boat http://www.planetsolar.org/boat/sections/the_boat
- adwf 11y ago
  Yeah, it's very cool! Sadly it doesn't seem to have great performance for a multihull. The spec sheet says 14kn top speed and 5kn average, which is rather poor for a 115' cat! A sailing cat of that size should be able to get 15-16 knots running and even more on a reach. An average speed of 7-8 is not unheard of even for 40-50' cats, let alone twice that. Must be very heavy in the water. I've read of a number of sailboat people who've replaced their old diesels with electric motor/solar panel combos and done quite well out of it. Whilst, for example, a motor can do 8kw at top speed, you usually only cruise at 3kw in and out of harbour and use the sails for the rest. Fitting enough solar for that is very doable on even a modestly sized boat. Then you can use batteries for any prolonged becalmings.
  - phkahler 11y ago
    I worked for a company that did a cat electrification project circa 2008. 90ft mast 1300 sq feet of living space. Replaced a diesel in each hull with 16kw motor, inverter, and batteries. Main diesel generator remained but was only for backup. You could run the props as generators while under sail for a cost of 1/2 knot you could run all electric loads including air conditioning while charging the batteries. I guess solar could be useful at the dock...
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      I'm purchasing a cat for a circumnavigation. Where could I have such a conversion done?
      - phkahler 11y ago
        >> I'm purchasing a cat for a circumnavigation. Where could I have such a conversion done? That company does not exist any more - it got bought and ultimately disbanded. The boat did cross the Atlantic BTW and IIRC used no fuel to do so. I always thought it was a really good use of the technology. There are independents and small companies out there that can do that type of work - search for electric aircraft projects and find the people behind those. For a single boat you'll want an industrial drives and controls guy who can also deal with the battery and system issues.
cossatot 11y ago
This site, like many others on the northeastern Mediterranean coast, is most likely submerged due to earthquake activity in the region. The site here is on the coast of the Argolic Gulf, which is a graben (down-dropped tectonic block). The main fault is on land, on the southern shore[1]. I want to say some of the temples where Paul lectured to the Corinthians are also underwater due to faulting (the Gulf of Corinth is tectonically subsiding) but I can't find the reference. (I'm not actually sure that he gave lectures, either; I think I heard this in a geology class). [1]: http://eqgeogr.weebly.com/blog/active-faults-of-greece-map-available-for-downloading http://eqgeogr.weebly.com/blog/active-faults-of-greece-map-a...
- PhantomGremlin 11y ago
  most likely submerged due to earthquake activity in the region It's shoddy journalism that the word "earthquake" appears nowhere in that article. Nor did I see an alternate explanation proffered. That's the very first question I had: "how did it become submerged?".
hcrisp 11y ago
It's always the last place you look. (If you had to look further, then that would be the last.)

82 points by happyscrappy 11y ago

This really reinforce something I have thought for some time now, mainly that due to sea level changes, many ancient sites are now underwater. I even have a pet theory about Atlantis, which I will repost from /r/AskHistorians: "Though it is probably confirmation bias due to my particular interest in Sumer, there is much evidence that what is now the Persian Gulf was flooded quite suddenly, With evidence that many of the settlements post-flood were quickly setup, in places where formerly only nomad hunter/gatherers lived. What you have to consider is the origin of the myth when compared to the archeology. The myth starts with Plato, who cites Solon visiting Sais, Egypt and learning of Atlantis. Plato says Atlantis existed about 9600 BC. My theory goes like this: What Plato/Solon called Atlantis is actually the civilization that once existed in the unflooded persian gulf, from which refuges of the flood fled to surrounding areas (and further) and brought with them the knowledge of civilization they possessed. When I say civilization, I mean the transition from hunter/gatherer society to agricultural society, and possibly writing/proto-writing. (Not the super civilization myth many imagine it as) Allow me to explain and support this assertion as best I can. The Egyptian town Solon visited was the home town of the goddess Neith as far back as 3000 BC, and it was the priests of Neith which gave him the information about Atlantis. Neith is likely to be associated with the god Tanit, who in turn may be associated with the Akkadian god Ishtar, which is actually the counterpart of the Sumerian Inanna. That's a lot of connections to make, but what does it matter relevant to this? Well, it matters in two main ways. First, the greek Athena (and hence Athens) is actually derived from, if the above connection is true, the Sumerian Inanna. Plato/Solon placed too much importance on this connection, and in seeking to tie their Athens to the myth of Atlantis, fouled the myth up a bit. (The part about Atlantis and a war with Athens) This is why for so long before the good science of plate tectonics and geology Atlantis was sought in places it could never have been, such as the Atlantic and Mediterranean. The real connection is Sumeria and before. The second part about why the Sumerian connection is so important is purely about timelines. If indeed there was a flood in the Persian Gulf as some of the recent science suggests, at around 8000 BC, it could possibly match the Sumerian King's list, which states there was a flood roughly that long ago. (the oldest king on the list verified is back to about 2600 BC, past that the list itself is the only source, which is why I say roughly) So I find it highly likely that much of the ancient history known by the priests of Sais that told Solon about Atlantis is actually the slightly adopted and modified version of the Sumerian flood myth, and this is supported by the study of the evolution of Egyptian religion/history as supported by archaeology. So there you have it. My theory that the flooded southern tip of the fertile crescent at about 8000 BC is the true "Atlantis". Feel free to poke holes in it or make corrections for any sloppiness on my part. This is something I have thought about for a while but just now put into words. The key thing I would focus on to expand this would be the writings of Plato regarding Solon. I have heard that it was a mistranslation that Plato said 9000 years and that it really reads 900 years, but I have not yet been able to find out where the original text is to ask to for a picture in order confirm/deny this." http://phys.org/news/2010-12-lost-civilization-persian-gulf.html http://phys.org/news/2010-12-lost-civilization-persian-gulf.... http://www.livescience.com/10340-lost-civilization-existed-beneath-persian-gulf.html http://www.livescience.com/10340-lost-civilization-existed-b... http://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Sarepta-Phoenician-City-Excavations/dp/0691002134 http://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Sarepta-Phoenician-City-Exc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List http://www.academia.edu/386944/New_Light_on_Human_Prehistory_in_the_Arabo-Persian_Gulf_Oasis http://www.academia.edu/386944/New_Light_on_Human_Prehistory...

mc32 11y ago
My limited history told me that it wasn't so much sea level rise as much as land level drop mostly caused by ground movement, aka earthquakes.
- arethuza 11y ago
  It doesn't even require big earthquakes - the pillars of the Macellum of Pozzuoli are famous because they show that the ground sank down to submerge them and them rose back up again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macellum_of_Pozzuoli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macellum_of_Pozzuoli
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
"The key thing I would focus on to expand this would be the writings of Plato regarding Solon. I have heard that it was a mistranslation that Plato said 9000 years and that it really reads 900 years, but I have not yet been able to find out where the original text is to ask to for a picture in order confirm/deny this" You want the Loeb Classical Library: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/collection.php?cpk=1031 http://www.hup.harvard.edu/collection.php?cpk=1031
- arca_vorago 11y ago
  Thank you for that! I'm no archaeologist or historian but I love ancient history so this is going to be my weekend reading.
  - ashark 11y ago
    Free, online: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/collection?collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/collection?collection=Pe... Plato's ~80% of the way down the page. Excellent resource for comparing original Greek and Latin text to various translations, in order to pick the one you want to read.
    - 11y ago

SloopJon 11y ago

The picture of the photovoltaic deck led me to a page describing a catamaran powered exclusively by 512 square meters of solar panels: http://www.planetsolar.org/boat/sections/the_boat http://www.planetsolar.org/boat/sections/the_boat

adwf 11y ago
Yeah, it's very cool! Sadly it doesn't seem to have great performance for a multihull. The spec sheet says 14kn top speed and 5kn average, which is rather poor for a 115' cat! A sailing cat of that size should be able to get 15-16 knots running and even more on a reach. An average speed of 7-8 is not unheard of even for 40-50' cats, let alone twice that. Must be very heavy in the water. I've read of a number of sailboat people who've replaced their old diesels with electric motor/solar panel combos and done quite well out of it. Whilst, for example, a motor can do 8kw at top speed, you usually only cruise at 3kw in and out of harbour and use the sails for the rest. Fitting enough solar for that is very doable on even a modestly sized boat. Then you can use batteries for any prolonged becalmings.
- phkahler 11y ago
  I worked for a company that did a cat electrification project circa 2008. 90ft mast 1300 sq feet of living space. Replaced a diesel in each hull with 16kw motor, inverter, and batteries. Main diesel generator remained but was only for backup. You could run the props as generators while under sail for a cost of 1/2 knot you could run all electric loads including air conditioning while charging the batteries. I guess solar could be useful at the dock...
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    I'm purchasing a cat for a circumnavigation. Where could I have such a conversion done?
    - phkahler 11y ago
      >> I'm purchasing a cat for a circumnavigation. Where could I have such a conversion done? That company does not exist any more - it got bought and ultimately disbanded. The boat did cross the Atlantic BTW and IIRC used no fuel to do so. I always thought it was a really good use of the technology. There are independents and small companies out there that can do that type of work - search for electric aircraft projects and find the people behind those. For a single boat you'll want an industrial drives and controls guy who can also deal with the battery and system issues.

cossatot 11y ago

This site, like many others on the northeastern Mediterranean coast, is most likely submerged due to earthquake activity in the region. The site here is on the coast of the Argolic Gulf, which is a graben (down-dropped tectonic block). The main fault is on land, on the southern shore[1]. I want to say some of the temples where Paul lectured to the Corinthians are also underwater due to faulting (the Gulf of Corinth is tectonically subsiding) but I can't find the reference. (I'm not actually sure that he gave lectures, either; I think I heard this in a geology class). [1]: http://eqgeogr.weebly.com/blog/active-faults-of-greece-map-available-for-downloading http://eqgeogr.weebly.com/blog/active-faults-of-greece-map-a...

PhantomGremlin 11y ago
most likely submerged due to earthquake activity in the region It's shoddy journalism that the word "earthquake" appears nowhere in that article. Nor did I see an alternate explanation proffered. That's the very first question I had: "how did it become submerged?".

hcrisp 11y ago

It's always the last place you look. (If you had to look further, then that would be the last.)