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To be fair, early 4chan also did some good through project chanology. It's almost as if when you allow people to have freedom, they end up making bad decisions.

by zxcvcxz 11y ago

To be fair, early 4chan also did some good through project chanology. It's almost as if when you allow people to have freedom, they end up making bad decisions. You make a good argument against democracy.

xyzzyz 11y ago
I don't think I'm making any argument against anything. There is a lot of good, interesting or valuable stuff that was created or originated at 4chan -- half of the internet culture for one thing, moot being chosen the TIME most influential person of 2009 another. Nevertheless, 4chan/b/ was always and still is a cesspool. I am not interested in discussing whether it's worth it to keep a place like this up, and if so, what should be the boundaries. I just wonder how exactly the climate around 4chan and moot has changed throughout the years, during which 4chan didn't change meaningfully.
- hluska 11y ago
  Were you involved in 4chan in the early days? My experience with 4chan did change. As I mentioned in another post on this thread, I have aged significantly and that may be to blame. But /b/ in particular went from being a community where unrestrained creativity was rewarded to a community where unrestrained cruelty was. For me, the change was absolutely obvious, but again, I was in my mid twenties when 4chan launched and I'm 38 now...
  - zxcvcxz 11y ago
    I believe the NSA (and other organizations) are responsible for this. I believe there is a force actively preventing people on the internet from organizing political protests/ideas so that they can maintain a status quo. Even when political protests do happen, they're protests allowed by these organizations to give people a false sense of accomplishing something. The "RadFems" are a big part of the problem, but so are the "racists". Most of the people who do the dirty work are "useful idiots" who have no idea what's going on.
    - afarrell 11y ago
      You've been downvoted by someone, but I think that was premature. I want to hear you expand on this. In particular: - By what mechanisms do you think that they are preventing protests and ideas? - Do you think they are trying to be secret doing so? If so, how much manpower do you think they have and how do they prevent someone from defecting in a game-theoretic sense?
  - Loughla 11y ago
    I don't think it has changed really at all. I think you have. I was on in the early days, and it was terrible. It was full of dark people looking to get a rise out of each other. It was full of brilliant individuals using that brilliance to get a rise out of each other. It was awful and amazing, it was brilliant and it was pants-on-head retarded at times. Those people were the closest friends I've never known. It still is. All of that. For many people. But the difference is that you've aged. 4chan in general, but specifically /b/, was, is, and will forever be the best introduction to the anonymous internet for young people. You can say whatever you want to whomever you want, and you don't really have to worry about being bullied. It gives juvenile individuals a way to express themselves, and experiment with just how horrible and creative they can be. All that said, I'm in the same boat as you. I used to go there, but I avoid it now, because my tastes have changed. It's still good for a quick chuckle once every three months or so, but that's about it.
    - kjs3 11y ago
      You can say whatever you want to whomever you want, and you don't really have to worry about being bullied. This is a complete load of shit and I can't imagine how stupid you have to be to think it's true other than being an apologist for 4chan. If you said the wrong thing to the wrong person, you wouldn't just get "bullied", you'd be dog-piled by dozens of abusers all egging each other on, doxed, swatted, hounded IRL and anything else the rabble could come up with. That's what Gamergate was: this mob going over the top with how big a bullies they could be when you had the audacity to say the wrong thing, be the wrong gender, in the wrong place.
pavel_lishin 11y ago
> You make a good argument against democracy Democracy sucks when there population gets too big. Representative democracy helps deal with a lot of those problems.
digi_owl 11y ago
Freedom without responsibilities, perhaps. 4chan evolved into what it is because you could claim to be anything and anyone. The only way you can liken that to democracy is if you have canadians voting on US politics or some such. Meaning that the voters were insulated by time or space from the outcome of their voting.
- Crito 11y ago
  How about representative democracy, where those representatives tend to be connected or rich enough to be shielded from any negative ramifications of how they vote?
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    How did they get into the position to vote in the first place? But yes, there is a issue there (and why keeping a close eye on the actions of elected representatives is paramount). In the end it boils down to feedback. If the feedback from actions are too delayed, inaccurate, or non-exitent, bad things happen.

by zxcvcxz 11y ago

xyzzyz 11y ago

I don't think I'm making any argument against anything. There is a lot of good, interesting or valuable stuff that was created or originated at 4chan -- half of the internet culture for one thing, moot being chosen the TIME most influential person of 2009 another. Nevertheless, 4chan/b/ was always and still is a cesspool. I am not interested in discussing whether it's worth it to keep a place like this up, and if so, what should be the boundaries. I just wonder how exactly the climate around 4chan and moot has changed throughout the years, during which 4chan didn't change meaningfully.

hluska 11y ago
Were you involved in 4chan in the early days? My experience with 4chan did change. As I mentioned in another post on this thread, I have aged significantly and that may be to blame. But /b/ in particular went from being a community where unrestrained creativity was rewarded to a community where unrestrained cruelty was. For me, the change was absolutely obvious, but again, I was in my mid twenties when 4chan launched and I'm 38 now...
- zxcvcxz 11y ago
  I believe the NSA (and other organizations) are responsible for this. I believe there is a force actively preventing people on the internet from organizing political protests/ideas so that they can maintain a status quo. Even when political protests do happen, they're protests allowed by these organizations to give people a false sense of accomplishing something. The "RadFems" are a big part of the problem, but so are the "racists". Most of the people who do the dirty work are "useful idiots" who have no idea what's going on.
  - afarrell 11y ago
    You've been downvoted by someone, but I think that was premature. I want to hear you expand on this. In particular: - By what mechanisms do you think that they are preventing protests and ideas? - Do you think they are trying to be secret doing so? If so, how much manpower do you think they have and how do they prevent someone from defecting in a game-theoretic sense?
- Loughla 11y ago
  I don't think it has changed really at all. I think you have. I was on in the early days, and it was terrible. It was full of dark people looking to get a rise out of each other. It was full of brilliant individuals using that brilliance to get a rise out of each other. It was awful and amazing, it was brilliant and it was pants-on-head retarded at times. Those people were the closest friends I've never known. It still is. All of that. For many people. But the difference is that you've aged. 4chan in general, but specifically /b/, was, is, and will forever be the best introduction to the anonymous internet for young people. You can say whatever you want to whomever you want, and you don't really have to worry about being bullied. It gives juvenile individuals a way to express themselves, and experiment with just how horrible and creative they can be. All that said, I'm in the same boat as you. I used to go there, but I avoid it now, because my tastes have changed. It's still good for a quick chuckle once every three months or so, but that's about it.
  - kjs3 11y ago
    You can say whatever you want to whomever you want, and you don't really have to worry about being bullied. This is a complete load of shit and I can't imagine how stupid you have to be to think it's true other than being an apologist for 4chan. If you said the wrong thing to the wrong person, you wouldn't just get "bullied", you'd be dog-piled by dozens of abusers all egging each other on, doxed, swatted, hounded IRL and anything else the rabble could come up with. That's what Gamergate was: this mob going over the top with how big a bullies they could be when you had the audacity to say the wrong thing, be the wrong gender, in the wrong place.

pavel_lishin 11y ago

> You make a good argument against democracy Democracy sucks when there population gets too big. Representative democracy helps deal with a lot of those problems.

digi_owl 11y ago

Freedom without responsibilities, perhaps. 4chan evolved into what it is because you could claim to be anything and anyone. The only way you can liken that to democracy is if you have canadians voting on US politics or some such. Meaning that the voters were insulated by time or space from the outcome of their voting.

Crito 11y ago
How about representative democracy, where those representatives tend to be connected or rich enough to be shielded from any negative ramifications of how they vote?
- digi_owl 11y ago
  How did they get into the position to vote in the first place? But yes, there is a issue there (and why keeping a close eye on the actions of elected representatives is paramount). In the end it boils down to feedback. If the feedback from actions are too delayed, inaccurate, or non-exitent, bad things happen.