5 ms·

How did expelling the DEA help? I can understand that the DEA would be ineffective but why would they be counter productive?

by spikels 11y ago

rincebrain 11y ago
The article insinuates that the DEA branch was accused of conspiracy and espionage - other articles seem to imply that the President at least believed that the DEA was following him around and spying on his romantic life, as well as implying that the US DEA branch attempted to contract killers to hit Bolivian gov't officials. I can't imagine that the grounding of the President's plane under suspicions of housing Snowden warmed him up, either. Further reading: [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia%E2%80%93United_States_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia%E2%80%93United_States_... [2] - http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1856153,00.html http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1856153,00... [3] - http://www.cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog/remember-when-venezuela-and-bolivia-kicked-the-us-dea-out-of-their-countries-accusing-it-of-espionage-looks-like-they-were-right http://www.cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog/remember-when-ve...
- roghummal 11y ago
  Meta-HN: Citations without citations. Further reading: [4] http://motherless.com http://motherless.com [5] http://slashdot.com http://slashdot.com [6] http://reddit.com http://reddit.com [7] http://motherless.com http://motherless.com (7+) Yes, this is listed twice. Edit: Put an 'l' in motherless, made a (something) into (7+). Not sure why...
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
    - roghummal 11y ago
      What's NSFW, exactly?
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  Psshhh! That's crazy talk. Our government wouldn't do anything like that.
davidovitch 11y ago
Very annoying when the source to the real report that is being discussed is not included. So here it is, in Spanish [pdf]: http://www.unodc.org/documents/bolivia/Informe_Monitoreo_Coca_2014/Bolivia_Informe_Monitoreo_Coca_2014.pdf http://www.unodc.org/documents/bolivia/Informe_Monitoreo_Coc.... I don't speak Spanish so I have not read this report. According to [1]: “It’s not only about making money off a crop. In the old fashioned alternative development approach, we substitute one illicit crop for a licit crop. It’s about a more comprehensive approach that includes access to essential services like schools, hospitals, and roads in areas that traditionally have been hard to reach,” and another citation, from the original UN report press release [2]: "the importance of comprehensive, participative and long-term development programmes, as essential elements to ensure a sustained reduction of illicit crops." I am by far an expert in this area, but I think kicking out the DEA allowed Bolivia to shift efforts from violent, top down (US orchestrated) repression to: * Giving farmers incentives to shift to other crops: do not let coca be the only way of sustaining the farmers family * Still allow coca growing for traditional usage (chewed, in tea, or as a natural analgesic) * Bottom up: work together with coca unions and farmers to understand the incentives that drive farmers to chose coca in the first place * Probably many more things I am not aware of [1] http://theantimedia.org/cocaine-production-plummets-after-dea-kicked-out-of-bolivia/ http://theantimedia.org/cocaine-production-plummets-after-de... [2] http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/frontpage/2015/August/2014-bolivia-survey-reports-decline-in-coca-cultivation-for-fourth-year-in-a-row.html http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/frontpage/2015/August/2014-bol... edit: layout fixes
pjc50 11y ago
The DEA are confrontational, destructive and foreign. They're the colonial police looking out for America's interest, not Bolivia's. This means they're going to be widely hated, even by people who might otherwise support their aims. So hated, in fact, that a political movement started against them and got elected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Socialism_%28Bolivia%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Socialism_%28Boli... The coca reduction that's actually happening is based on replacing coca growing with other forms of agriculture in cooperation with the farmers. Coca leaf is unlikely to be eliminated entirely as it's an effective traditional medication for dealing with altitude sickness (much of Bolivia is at high altitude, including La Paz at 13400ft). So again Bolivians are never going to support its 100% eradication. The exported product is purified cocaine hydrochloride, not the leaf.
- Quequau 11y ago
  Having spent a fair bit of time in Peru and Bolivia, I am 100% convinced that consumers of cocaine, in the form of an illicit street drug, are missing the majority of the experience of consuming the Coca leaf as it's consumed locally. Unfortunately I simply lack the vocabulary describe what exactly is missing and how the experience of chewing the Coca leaf is superior... but I've personally found the difference to be profound. My experiences traveling through the region have convinced me that attempts to eradicate the coca plant and practice of chewing coca leaves are fundamentally misguided and unethical. Cocaine is problem primarily in the advanced capitalist economies and it is solely within these nations where those problems can be solved... though it's obvious to anyone who is being intellectually honest that the strategies of the DEA and the drug war are abysmal failures and so must be either substantially reformed or abandoned altogether.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Similar to the difference between drinking a cup of (regular black) tea and consuming a small amount of powdered caffeine?
  - StavrosK 11y ago
    I don't think one needs to have traveled through the region to consider unethical the attempts to stifle a nation's old tradition that isn't hurting anyone. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
jamesfe 11y ago
I don't doubt the incompetence of the DEA, but I thought the same thing - so I did some deep searching (sarcasm) and found this page: http://en.institutomanquehue.org/about.html http://en.institutomanquehue.org/about.html - it looks like this is an institute devoted to, among other things, "projecting a faithful image of this region to the world". I'd imagine that this story is being spun a bit - satellite imagery isn't the most accurate for crop identification over such large areas of land (biased source: myself, a satellite imagery analyst for 5 years), plus Latin American countries are constantly, for obvious reasons, trying to distance themselves from powers such as the US which often associated with colonialism and oppression. TL;DR: This is a puff PR piece exaggerating the efficiency of the Bolivian Gov.
- mariocesar 11y ago
  I'm bolivian. "Coca is not cocaine" is a long movement that started way before the current government, a movement that for many years introduces changes with several social movements involved, one of them the most active make a president. Giving credit to a foreign ONG/Foundation/Institute/60' minded Guys the image of an whole country, is not that pretentious?
ingenieros 11y ago
DEA agents are usually too busy partying it up with local hookers supplied by drug cartels to do any actual work. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/14/dea-agents-prostitutes-overseas-sex-parties http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/14/dea-agents-pr...
Zigurd 11y ago
DEA and the State Department operate a fleet of planes for, among other things, spraying defoliant on suspected drug crops in foreign countries. They roll around in armored SUVs. They bring a lot of business to houses of prostitution. They escalate violence. And those are just the benefits.

How did expelling the DEA help? I can understand that the DEA would be ineffective but why would they be counter productive?

by spikels 11y ago

How did expelling the DEA help? I can understand that the DEA would be ineffective but why would they be counter productive?

rincebrain 11y ago

The article insinuates that the DEA branch was accused of conspiracy and espionage - other articles seem to imply that the President at least believed that the DEA was following him around and spying on his romantic life, as well as implying that the US DEA branch attempted to contract killers to hit Bolivian gov't officials. I can't imagine that the grounding of the President's plane under suspicions of housing Snowden warmed him up, either. Further reading: [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia%E2%80%93United_States_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia%E2%80%93United_States_... [2] - http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1856153,00.html http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1856153,00... [3] - http://www.cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog/remember-when-venezuela-and-bolivia-kicked-the-us-dea-out-of-their-countries-accusing-it-of-espionage-looks-like-they-were-right http://www.cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog/remember-when-ve...

roghummal 11y ago
Meta-HN: Citations without citations. Further reading: [4] http://motherless.com http://motherless.com [5] http://slashdot.com http://slashdot.com [6] http://reddit.com http://reddit.com [7] http://motherless.com http://motherless.com (7+) Yes, this is listed twice. Edit: Put an 'l' in motherless, made a (something) into (7+). Not sure why...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - roghummal 11y ago
    What's NSFW, exactly?
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
Psshhh! That's crazy talk. Our government wouldn't do anything like that.

davidovitch 11y ago

Very annoying when the source to the real report that is being discussed is not included. So here it is, in Spanish [pdf]: http://www.unodc.org/documents/bolivia/Informe_Monitoreo_Coca_2014/Bolivia_Informe_Monitoreo_Coca_2014.pdf http://www.unodc.org/documents/bolivia/Informe_Monitoreo_Coc.... I don't speak Spanish so I have not read this report. According to [1]: “It’s not only about making money off a crop. In the old fashioned alternative development approach, we substitute one illicit crop for a licit crop. It’s about a more comprehensive approach that includes access to essential services like schools, hospitals, and roads in areas that traditionally have been hard to reach,” and another citation, from the original UN report press release [2]: "the importance of comprehensive, participative and long-term development programmes, as essential elements to ensure a sustained reduction of illicit crops." I am by far an expert in this area, but I think kicking out the DEA allowed Bolivia to shift efforts from violent, top down (US orchestrated) repression to: * Giving farmers incentives to shift to other crops: do not let coca be the only way of sustaining the farmers family * Still allow coca growing for traditional usage (chewed, in tea, or as a natural analgesic) * Bottom up: work together with coca unions and farmers to understand the incentives that drive farmers to chose coca in the first place * Probably many more things I am not aware of [1] http://theantimedia.org/cocaine-production-plummets-after-dea-kicked-out-of-bolivia/ http://theantimedia.org/cocaine-production-plummets-after-de... [2] http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/frontpage/2015/August/2014-bolivia-survey-reports-decline-in-coca-cultivation-for-fourth-year-in-a-row.html http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/frontpage/2015/August/2014-bol... edit: layout fixes

pjc50 11y ago

The DEA are confrontational, destructive and foreign. They're the colonial police looking out for America's interest, not Bolivia's. This means they're going to be widely hated, even by people who might otherwise support their aims. So hated, in fact, that a political movement started against them and got elected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Socialism_%28Bolivia%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Socialism_%28Boli... The coca reduction that's actually happening is based on replacing coca growing with other forms of agriculture in cooperation with the farmers. Coca leaf is unlikely to be eliminated entirely as it's an effective traditional medication for dealing with altitude sickness (much of Bolivia is at high altitude, including La Paz at 13400ft). So again Bolivians are never going to support its 100% eradication. The exported product is purified cocaine hydrochloride, not the leaf.

Quequau 11y ago
Having spent a fair bit of time in Peru and Bolivia, I am 100% convinced that consumers of cocaine, in the form of an illicit street drug, are missing the majority of the experience of consuming the Coca leaf as it's consumed locally. Unfortunately I simply lack the vocabulary describe what exactly is missing and how the experience of chewing the Coca leaf is superior... but I've personally found the difference to be profound. My experiences traveling through the region have convinced me that attempts to eradicate the coca plant and practice of chewing coca leaves are fundamentally misguided and unethical. Cocaine is problem primarily in the advanced capitalist economies and it is solely within these nations where those problems can be solved... though it's obvious to anyone who is being intellectually honest that the strategies of the DEA and the drug war are abysmal failures and so must be either substantially reformed or abandoned altogether.
- pjc50 11y ago
  Similar to the difference between drinking a cup of (regular black) tea and consuming a small amount of powdered caffeine?
- StavrosK 11y ago
  I don't think one needs to have traveled through the region to consider unethical the attempts to stifle a nation's old tradition that isn't hurting anyone. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

jamesfe 11y ago

I don't doubt the incompetence of the DEA, but I thought the same thing - so I did some deep searching (sarcasm) and found this page: http://en.institutomanquehue.org/about.html http://en.institutomanquehue.org/about.html - it looks like this is an institute devoted to, among other things, "projecting a faithful image of this region to the world". I'd imagine that this story is being spun a bit - satellite imagery isn't the most accurate for crop identification over such large areas of land (biased source: myself, a satellite imagery analyst for 5 years), plus Latin American countries are constantly, for obvious reasons, trying to distance themselves from powers such as the US which often associated with colonialism and oppression. TL;DR: This is a puff PR piece exaggerating the efficiency of the Bolivian Gov.

mariocesar 11y ago
I'm bolivian. "Coca is not cocaine" is a long movement that started way before the current government, a movement that for many years introduces changes with several social movements involved, one of them the most active make a president. Giving credit to a foreign ONG/Foundation/Institute/60' minded Guys the image of an whole country, is not that pretentious?

ingenieros 11y ago

DEA agents are usually too busy partying it up with local hookers supplied by drug cartels to do any actual work. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/14/dea-agents-prostitutes-overseas-sex-parties http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/14/dea-agents-pr...

Zigurd 11y ago

DEA and the State Department operate a fleet of planes for, among other things, spraying defoliant on suspected drug crops in foreign countries. They roll around in armored SUVs. They bring a lot of business to houses of prostitution. They escalate violence. And those are just the benefits.