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>"With a normal car, you have to worry about how much gas you have, when and where you'll stop to fill up" Okay, people might exaggerate "range anxiety" on the

>"With a normal car, you have to worry about how much gas you have, when and where you'll stop to fill up" Okay, people might exaggerate "range anxiety" on the Teslas. But you're definitely reaching here: when and where to fill up a gasoline car? How about 24 hours a day on almost any street corner in the country. Running out of fuel isn't even on the radar.

mikeash 11y ago
I drove gas cars for about two decades, and owned them for about one decade. I've only been doing the EV thing for about half a year. So it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about here. No, it's not a particularly big deal, but it's a constant low-level refrain. If I'm leaving in the morning for something time-sensitive, do I have to build an extra ten minutes into my schedule for a gas stop? What if I haven't been paying attention and discover fuel is running low when I'm on the highway and the next exit is in 20 miles? What if I pick the wrong street corner and get gouged? (The closest gas station to my house charges $2.49/gallon right now. While driving this morning I passed a station not too far away that charges $3.49/gallon.) Filling up your gas car from time to time is not difficult. But it is something you have to think about from time to time. If you don't think about it, you'll occasionally find yourself having to make an unscheduled stop somewhere. It's small but non-zero. An EV is easier. I don't think it's a particularly big deal. It's a nice convenience to have, but it wouldn't make or break the decision for buying a car. But I think it's a useful counterpoint to people who talk about how difficult or inconvenient charging is. 99% of the time it is easier than gas.
- kylec 11y ago
  What if you haven't been paying attention and discover your batteries are running low when you're on the highway and the next exit is in 20 miles? What are the chances you'll be able to find somewhere to charge before your car stops? Also, just like how you charge your Tesla every night, I think most gas-powered car owners keep an eye on their fuel and will fill up the night before if they don't have time to stop in the morning. That's really a non-issue as well. Yes, owners of gas-powered cars will need to make impromptu, unscheduled stops to fill up, but EV owners have to constantly be planning in advance to know that they'll be able to hit the next charging point, because if they don't make it their car is going to be making the rest of the journey on the back of a flatbed truck.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    A Tesla requires more forethought and effort for long trips. I won't dispute that. But my point is that for a gas car, getting gas and not running out of a gas is a constant thing even when you're not on a long trip. When I had a gas car, every so often I would get in the car ready to drive 60 miles out to the countryside or something and realize, nuts, I need to get gas on the way. I never let this happen to myself, but I see friends suddenly realize they need to stop and get gas while on a local drive of maybe 40 miles round trip. And even if you're on top of things and never let it happen, you're still spending a few minutes every week filling up the car. With an EV, for any trip that's within the range of the car, it's zero effort and zero thought. EV owners definitely don't have to "constantly be planning in advance." For 99% of drives you don't have to even think about it. Just unplug and go. For the 1% of the time you're making trips, then you have to think about it. My point is simply that the EV isn't worse in this way, it's just different. It's a tradeoff. If, like most people, you mostly do local driving with very occasional road trips, the EV will be less effort overall, not more.
  - greglindahl 11y ago
    Does "not paying attention" include ignoring the Tesla warnings that you're low on charge, based on your battery level and the distance to nearby charging stations? It's connected to the nav system and knows your route, too. Pretty spiffy.
    - kylec 11y ago
      I don't know, I was using mikeash's phrasing to create a comparable situation. In reality, most cars, including the Tesla, alert you well in advance of running out of fuel so neither case is likely to happen.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        A typical car will alert you when you have about 40 miles left. It's not too hard to find yourself in a situation where it's more than 40 miles to a gas station, although it is unlikely. A Model S will alert you when you're about to drive out of range of known charging stations. If it's 100 miles to the next charging station, it'll start to bug you when you have something over 100 miles left. Not quite the same. But my point here is, of course, more about the fact that you have to make ~50 (depending on how much you drive and what you drive, obviously) trips to the gas station every year even when you're just local, and thus gas-based range anxiety, while small, is ever-present. In an EV, it's not present at all when local.
Ologn 11y ago
Driving at 1 AM from Plattsburgh, NY to Albany, NY, I did worry about whether I would run out of fuel. Including seeing an exit sign for a gas station, and driving a mile out the exit only to find it was closed, only to turn around and get back on the highway with fuel running low. Driving from Youngstown, Ohio to Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania at 1 AM, I also worried about running out of fuel. People I know who travel across Wyoming, Nevada, South Dakota etc. say it is worse out there. Fuel is not available 24/7 on every street corner of the country. On Route 95 from Portland, Maine to Miami, Florida it is to some extent. But go a little off the beaten track and it is not.
- kylec 11y ago
  True, even gas stations don't have 100% coverage, but it's much, much better than EV charger coverage. Imagine you had a Tesla that was running out of power in those situations you mentioned: do you think it would have been easier to find a charging station that it was to find a gas station?
  - Kim_Bruning 11y ago
    Yes. Every house has electricity. People would look at you funny, but it can be done.

mikeash 11y ago

I drove gas cars for about two decades, and owned them for about one decade. I've only been doing the EV thing for about half a year. So it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about here. No, it's not a particularly big deal, but it's a constant low-level refrain. If I'm leaving in the morning for something time-sensitive, do I have to build an extra ten minutes into my schedule for a gas stop? What if I haven't been paying attention and discover fuel is running low when I'm on the highway and the next exit is in 20 miles? What if I pick the wrong street corner and get gouged? (The closest gas station to my house charges $2.49/gallon right now. While driving this morning I passed a station not too far away that charges $3.49/gallon.) Filling up your gas car from time to time is not difficult. But it is something you have to think about from time to time. If you don't think about it, you'll occasionally find yourself having to make an unscheduled stop somewhere. It's small but non-zero. An EV is easier. I don't think it's a particularly big deal. It's a nice convenience to have, but it wouldn't make or break the decision for buying a car. But I think it's a useful counterpoint to people who talk about how difficult or inconvenient charging is. 99% of the time it is easier than gas.

kylec 11y ago
What if you haven't been paying attention and discover your batteries are running low when you're on the highway and the next exit is in 20 miles? What are the chances you'll be able to find somewhere to charge before your car stops? Also, just like how you charge your Tesla every night, I think most gas-powered car owners keep an eye on their fuel and will fill up the night before if they don't have time to stop in the morning. That's really a non-issue as well. Yes, owners of gas-powered cars will need to make impromptu, unscheduled stops to fill up, but EV owners have to constantly be planning in advance to know that they'll be able to hit the next charging point, because if they don't make it their car is going to be making the rest of the journey on the back of a flatbed truck.
- mikeash 11y ago
  A Tesla requires more forethought and effort for long trips. I won't dispute that. But my point is that for a gas car, getting gas and not running out of a gas is a constant thing even when you're not on a long trip. When I had a gas car, every so often I would get in the car ready to drive 60 miles out to the countryside or something and realize, nuts, I need to get gas on the way. I never let this happen to myself, but I see friends suddenly realize they need to stop and get gas while on a local drive of maybe 40 miles round trip. And even if you're on top of things and never let it happen, you're still spending a few minutes every week filling up the car. With an EV, for any trip that's within the range of the car, it's zero effort and zero thought. EV owners definitely don't have to "constantly be planning in advance." For 99% of drives you don't have to even think about it. Just unplug and go. For the 1% of the time you're making trips, then you have to think about it. My point is simply that the EV isn't worse in this way, it's just different. It's a tradeoff. If, like most people, you mostly do local driving with very occasional road trips, the EV will be less effort overall, not more.
- greglindahl 11y ago
  Does "not paying attention" include ignoring the Tesla warnings that you're low on charge, based on your battery level and the distance to nearby charging stations? It's connected to the nav system and knows your route, too. Pretty spiffy.
  - kylec 11y ago
    I don't know, I was using mikeash's phrasing to create a comparable situation. In reality, most cars, including the Tesla, alert you well in advance of running out of fuel so neither case is likely to happen.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      A typical car will alert you when you have about 40 miles left. It's not too hard to find yourself in a situation where it's more than 40 miles to a gas station, although it is unlikely. A Model S will alert you when you're about to drive out of range of known charging stations. If it's 100 miles to the next charging station, it'll start to bug you when you have something over 100 miles left. Not quite the same. But my point here is, of course, more about the fact that you have to make ~50 (depending on how much you drive and what you drive, obviously) trips to the gas station every year even when you're just local, and thus gas-based range anxiety, while small, is ever-present. In an EV, it's not present at all when local.

Ologn 11y ago

Driving at 1 AM from Plattsburgh, NY to Albany, NY, I did worry about whether I would run out of fuel. Including seeing an exit sign for a gas station, and driving a mile out the exit only to find it was closed, only to turn around and get back on the highway with fuel running low. Driving from Youngstown, Ohio to Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania at 1 AM, I also worried about running out of fuel. People I know who travel across Wyoming, Nevada, South Dakota etc. say it is worse out there. Fuel is not available 24/7 on every street corner of the country. On Route 95 from Portland, Maine to Miami, Florida it is to some extent. But go a little off the beaten track and it is not.

kylec 11y ago
True, even gas stations don't have 100% coverage, but it's much, much better than EV charger coverage. Imagine you had a Tesla that was running out of power in those situations you mentioned: do you think it would have been easier to find a charging station that it was to find a gas station?
- Kim_Bruning 11y ago
  Yes. Every house has electricity. People would look at you funny, but it can be done.