7 ms·

Would it be possible for firefighters to respond to mental health emergencies with another type of vehicle?

cwyers 11y ago
It depends how many crews you have at the firehouse. If you have multiple crews, then maybe. If you're taking the only fire crew at the house out to respond to this, the whole firetruck needs to come with because if there is a fire, you don't want the crew to have to drive back to the firehouse, get the firetruck ready to go and then go back out to respond to the fire.
- djrogers 11y ago
  And in many cases, if a city tried to put a (much cheaper) paramedic crew/ambulance in a firehouse to cover calls like this the union would point out that it violates their agreement with the city. So we go on wasting resources, talent, and ability.
  - Brian-Puccio 11y ago
    In my suburban NY town, something very similar is happening. There was a federal grant for some paid firefighters a few years ago. The grant expired and the firefighters were laid off. The union complained about how unsafe it was. The city hired consultants to look at the situation and they said most calls were not fires and medical care was needed most. You'd think that would be the end of it, but one of the laid off firefighters is now running for council in a move most everyone reads as a "I'm going to give me and my friends our jobs back, so you should vote for me, otherwise the town will burn to the ground" move.
  - lmm 11y ago
    It's weird how Americans seem to have this huge anti-union thing going, and yet the same problems seem to never arise here in Europe, even though we are far more unionized.
    - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
      Maybe it's because the only strong unions left standing after a long campaign against them are those that protect the already privileged categories: law enforcement, firefighters, etc.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > It's weird how Americans seem to have this huge anti-union thing going, and yet the same problems seem to never arise here in Europe, even though we are far more unionized. Perhaps the American tendency to blame unions is, in part, a direct result of the fact that Americans are less likely to have direct experience with unions. (As well as being a cause of that effect -- its a positive feedback loop.)
jbaudanza 11y ago
I'm hoping the proliferation of self-driving cars in San Francisco will bring about some alternative to emergency sirens, but who knows.
- gnu8 11y ago
  I wonder how much attention this aspect of self-driving cars is receiving. We probably need some explicit protocol for (duly authorized) emergency services to assert priority in traffic. Relying on standard self-driving heuristic protocols, or anything that isn't cryptographically secure would be rife for abuse. Interesting that you specifically mention San Francisco. SF-centric thinking on HN and in general is growing increasingly annoying, and this might be the reason your post is attracting downvotes. The world is bigger than your startup disneyland.
harmmonica 11y ago
Always poor form to use an anecdote to shed light on an issue, but I once "cried wolf" to the SFFD because I thought a homeless person was in an emergency situation. I was walking on (upper) Market St when a woman, sitting on a stoop, screamed out for help. I turned, saw her and then saw a flight of stairs behind her. She was wailing as if she'd just fallen down the stairs. I ran over to her, asked if she was ok (she was lucid so I figured she could tell me what had happened), but she just stared up at me screaming. I called 911 and told them what I thought had happened. The fire department, big rig and all, pulled up in about 2 minutes (station close by, but amazing response time, really) and the moment the first fireman hopped out of the truck you could just see the exasperation on his face. He made no urgent rush over to the woman. He just looked at me and asked if that was the woman and explained that they'd already been out to see her earlier that day, and many times in the past. I felt terrible, but of course had no way of knowing. Fireman just patted me on the back and said I did the right thing. The moral (from an unnecessarily long story): it's almost impossible to know what's an emergency in these situations. My thought (reading this on HN where I ignorantly think tech can solve everything) is to say that 911 calls in SF should include a picture of the person, but that's not sensible, of course, because seconds can sometimes literally be the difference between life and death.
- netfire 11y ago
  Requiring a picture seems like a little much, but having the option of some sort of video chat for 911 calls (maybe like Facetime with a cellular audio call fallback) seems like it could provide a number of benefits, both in eliminating false alarms, and giving first responders more situational information that would help them respond appropriately. Taking it a step further (in the tech can solve anything world), it might be interesting if emergency responders could send some sort of push notification to people inside a certain geofenced area and ask them to provide a live video feed of the situation as well.
  - harmmonica 11y ago
    Dreaming here, but I wonder if someone from the Periscope team could go around mid-Market/Tenderloin and try and get people to do exactly what you're describing. Spread the word: "Need to call 911? Use Periscope to educate the 911 dispatcher about the problem." Visit shelters, offices, etc. in a 1/2-mile radius or something and ask people to do it. Of course you then get into an issue where the 911 dispatcher is not the person who would actually know the street-level specifics, but you're right that there would seemingly be countless benefits. Tackle it from both sides, maybe, and talk to the city while you're at it (as slow as things move, the only way to actually change things is to start).
sharkweek 11y ago
Only trouble with that is firefighters are supposed to be fully ready to leave a scene and immediately be prepared to go to whatever is next, whether that be another medical emergency or a 7 alarm structure fire.
- netfire 11y ago
  Why use firefighters at all in situations where there isn't the potential for a fire to happen? It seems like police and any needed EMT workers could handle the situation without needing bigger fire trucks that are more expensive to run and more disruptive to traffic. I'd think the police would also be closer to respond to such situations as they may already be on the street or in a nearby police vehicle.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - tsotha 11y ago
    >Why use firefighters at all in situations where there isn't the potential for a fire to happen? They have the equipment and muscle power to move people. What are a couple of EMTs going to do with a 600 lb guy on the third floor of an apartment building, or someone trapped in a smashed car?
    - netfire 11y ago
      Yes, it makes sense to have firefighters with better equipment/muscle power present in those cases (the smashed car is also a potential fire hazard). Those seem like more edge cases (most people don't weigh 600 lbs and most car accidents are minor collisions with little to no fire danger). That doesn't justify the extra expense of using them in other situations like the ones mentioned in the article which could easily be handled by police and EMTs.
      - tsotha 11y ago
        The problem is they often don't know what they're going to find until they arrive on scene. If that 600 pound guy is having a heart attack you don't want to have everyone sitting around for an extra five minutes waiting for the engine to arrive.
curun1r 11y ago
That's the part of this story that's not being told. A little over a decade ago, there was a political power grab wherein the fire department took over all emergency calls. Prior to that, SF had EMTs that would respond in ambulances. This has increased the cost of these programs because firefighters often respond in fire engines instead of ambulances and all responders need to be trained as both fire fighters and EMTs. It's a horribly wasteful policy that makes no sense beyond increasing the political power of the fire department. Source: I had a friend who was an EMT at the time of the switchover who had to leave the city to work in a nearby area because he didn't want to train for and fight fires.
- larrik 11y ago
  Ironically, a similar policy was put into effect in a nearby city to me (Waterbury, CT), and it wasn't a power grab so much as a "we're paying them anyway" thing. (They became mandatory first responders, but EMTs were still a separate thing.) Of course, Waterbury has a habit of fatal accidents involving fire trucks (including hitting each other!), so that made me feel like everyone loses in that one.
- 1024core 11y ago
  Came here to say this. It is a waste of SFFD resources, but since when did "waste" become a concern in SF? I remember one of the folks at Stamen design wanted to plot where SFFDs responders were going, and for what purpose. But he was stonewalled by SFFD and denied the info. SFFD does not want you to know that 90% of their calls are for homeless-related issues.
  - techdragon 11y ago
    FOIA request ? Not sure how they could actually block that given the banality of the data in question.
    - 1024core 11y ago
      I've heard they refused, citing HIPAA.
JauntTrooper 11y ago
When I used to work on an ambulance in a suburban area, we would sometimes go 'lights-only' at night so as not to wake residents. That might be tougher to do in a city though, and it might not be allowed under some state laws.

It depends how many crews you have at the firehouse. If you have multiple crews, then maybe. If you're taking the only fire crew at the house out to respond to this, the whole firetruck needs to come with because if there is a fire, you don't want the crew to have to drive back to the firehouse, get the firetruck ready to go and then go back out to respond to the fire.

djrogers 11y ago
And in many cases, if a city tried to put a (much cheaper) paramedic crew/ambulance in a firehouse to cover calls like this the union would point out that it violates their agreement with the city. So we go on wasting resources, talent, and ability.
- Brian-Puccio 11y ago
  In my suburban NY town, something very similar is happening. There was a federal grant for some paid firefighters a few years ago. The grant expired and the firefighters were laid off. The union complained about how unsafe it was. The city hired consultants to look at the situation and they said most calls were not fires and medical care was needed most. You'd think that would be the end of it, but one of the laid off firefighters is now running for council in a move most everyone reads as a "I'm going to give me and my friends our jobs back, so you should vote for me, otherwise the town will burn to the ground" move.
- lmm 11y ago
  It's weird how Americans seem to have this huge anti-union thing going, and yet the same problems seem to never arise here in Europe, even though we are far more unionized.
  - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
    Maybe it's because the only strong unions left standing after a long campaign against them are those that protect the already privileged categories: law enforcement, firefighters, etc.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > It's weird how Americans seem to have this huge anti-union thing going, and yet the same problems seem to never arise here in Europe, even though we are far more unionized. Perhaps the American tendency to blame unions is, in part, a direct result of the fact that Americans are less likely to have direct experience with unions. (As well as being a cause of that effect -- its a positive feedback loop.)

jbaudanza 11y ago

I'm hoping the proliferation of self-driving cars in San Francisco will bring about some alternative to emergency sirens, but who knows.

gnu8 11y ago
I wonder how much attention this aspect of self-driving cars is receiving. We probably need some explicit protocol for (duly authorized) emergency services to assert priority in traffic. Relying on standard self-driving heuristic protocols, or anything that isn't cryptographically secure would be rife for abuse. Interesting that you specifically mention San Francisco. SF-centric thinking on HN and in general is growing increasingly annoying, and this might be the reason your post is attracting downvotes. The world is bigger than your startup disneyland.

harmmonica 11y ago

Always poor form to use an anecdote to shed light on an issue, but I once "cried wolf" to the SFFD because I thought a homeless person was in an emergency situation. I was walking on (upper) Market St when a woman, sitting on a stoop, screamed out for help. I turned, saw her and then saw a flight of stairs behind her. She was wailing as if she'd just fallen down the stairs. I ran over to her, asked if she was ok (she was lucid so I figured she could tell me what had happened), but she just stared up at me screaming. I called 911 and told them what I thought had happened. The fire department, big rig and all, pulled up in about 2 minutes (station close by, but amazing response time, really) and the moment the first fireman hopped out of the truck you could just see the exasperation on his face. He made no urgent rush over to the woman. He just looked at me and asked if that was the woman and explained that they'd already been out to see her earlier that day, and many times in the past. I felt terrible, but of course had no way of knowing. Fireman just patted me on the back and said I did the right thing. The moral (from an unnecessarily long story): it's almost impossible to know what's an emergency in these situations. My thought (reading this on HN where I ignorantly think tech can solve everything) is to say that 911 calls in SF should include a picture of the person, but that's not sensible, of course, because seconds can sometimes literally be the difference between life and death.

netfire 11y ago
Requiring a picture seems like a little much, but having the option of some sort of video chat for 911 calls (maybe like Facetime with a cellular audio call fallback) seems like it could provide a number of benefits, both in eliminating false alarms, and giving first responders more situational information that would help them respond appropriately. Taking it a step further (in the tech can solve anything world), it might be interesting if emergency responders could send some sort of push notification to people inside a certain geofenced area and ask them to provide a live video feed of the situation as well.
- harmmonica 11y ago
  Dreaming here, but I wonder if someone from the Periscope team could go around mid-Market/Tenderloin and try and get people to do exactly what you're describing. Spread the word: "Need to call 911? Use Periscope to educate the 911 dispatcher about the problem." Visit shelters, offices, etc. in a 1/2-mile radius or something and ask people to do it. Of course you then get into an issue where the 911 dispatcher is not the person who would actually know the street-level specifics, but you're right that there would seemingly be countless benefits. Tackle it from both sides, maybe, and talk to the city while you're at it (as slow as things move, the only way to actually change things is to start).

sharkweek 11y ago

Only trouble with that is firefighters are supposed to be fully ready to leave a scene and immediately be prepared to go to whatever is next, whether that be another medical emergency or a 7 alarm structure fire.

netfire 11y ago
Why use firefighters at all in situations where there isn't the potential for a fire to happen? It seems like police and any needed EMT workers could handle the situation without needing bigger fire trucks that are more expensive to run and more disruptive to traffic. I'd think the police would also be closer to respond to such situations as they may already be on the street or in a nearby police vehicle.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- tsotha 11y ago
  >Why use firefighters at all in situations where there isn't the potential for a fire to happen? They have the equipment and muscle power to move people. What are a couple of EMTs going to do with a 600 lb guy on the third floor of an apartment building, or someone trapped in a smashed car?
  - netfire 11y ago
    Yes, it makes sense to have firefighters with better equipment/muscle power present in those cases (the smashed car is also a potential fire hazard). Those seem like more edge cases (most people don't weigh 600 lbs and most car accidents are minor collisions with little to no fire danger). That doesn't justify the extra expense of using them in other situations like the ones mentioned in the article which could easily be handled by police and EMTs.
    - tsotha 11y ago
      The problem is they often don't know what they're going to find until they arrive on scene. If that 600 pound guy is having a heart attack you don't want to have everyone sitting around for an extra five minutes waiting for the engine to arrive.

curun1r 11y ago

That's the part of this story that's not being told. A little over a decade ago, there was a political power grab wherein the fire department took over all emergency calls. Prior to that, SF had EMTs that would respond in ambulances. This has increased the cost of these programs because firefighters often respond in fire engines instead of ambulances and all responders need to be trained as both fire fighters and EMTs. It's a horribly wasteful policy that makes no sense beyond increasing the political power of the fire department. Source: I had a friend who was an EMT at the time of the switchover who had to leave the city to work in a nearby area because he didn't want to train for and fight fires.

larrik 11y ago
Ironically, a similar policy was put into effect in a nearby city to me (Waterbury, CT), and it wasn't a power grab so much as a "we're paying them anyway" thing. (They became mandatory first responders, but EMTs were still a separate thing.) Of course, Waterbury has a habit of fatal accidents involving fire trucks (including hitting each other!), so that made me feel like everyone loses in that one.
1024core 11y ago
Came here to say this. It is a waste of SFFD resources, but since when did "waste" become a concern in SF? I remember one of the folks at Stamen design wanted to plot where SFFDs responders were going, and for what purpose. But he was stonewalled by SFFD and denied the info. SFFD does not want you to know that 90% of their calls are for homeless-related issues.
- techdragon 11y ago
  FOIA request ? Not sure how they could actually block that given the banality of the data in question.
  - 1024core 11y ago
    I've heard they refused, citing HIPAA.

JauntTrooper 11y ago

When I used to work on an ambulance in a suburban area, we would sometimes go 'lights-only' at night so as not to wake residents. That might be tougher to do in a city though, and it might not be allowed under some state laws.