6 ms·

The P85D is, no question, stupendously fast 0-60. But is that really all you care about when driving a car? I recently was shopping for a performance car and th

by kylec 11y ago

The P85D is, no question, stupendously fast 0-60. But is that really all you care about when driving a car? I recently was shopping for a performance car and the Tesla was never even a consideration because of all the other limitations (range, charging availability, etc). As something to show off with, the Tesla wows and amazes people. As a car to drive on a daily basis, I think it is too compromised.

mikeash 11y ago
Do you drive more than 250 miles in a day on a regular basis? When you do drive that far, do you do it on routes that aren't covered by Tesla's Supercharger network? As a daily driver, the Tesla is easier to deal with than a normal car. With a normal car, you have to worry about how much gas you have, when and where you'll stop to fill up, etc. My Model S is full in the morning every time. For trips that exceed the range available on a single charge you do have to think a little bit more. But for the vast majority of destinations, it's not hard. If you're going to be regularly driving to a place without adequate charging infrastructure then yes, the Tesla is not for you, but that's a relatively small number of people. When you say, "range, charging availability, etc." what does the "etc." refer to? I would not even put charging availability on that list. Range is a limitation for sure, although not a terribly bad one, but I can't think of anything else.
- kylec 11y ago
  I live in Massachusetts, and I regularly visit my parents in Maine, which is about 270 miles away. There are no Superchargers along the route, at my parents' house, nor indeed anywhere in Maine. I also live in an apartment, and there is no electric car charging here, so I'd probably have to frequent the local Supercharger to keep it topped off. The "etc" covers things like not having physical controls for adjusting the climate and sound systems, as well as a generally substandard interior for a $100K car. Not dealbreakers per se, but factors that leaned me away from considering the car. I don't know if I'm in the minority here, maybe I am. Maybe most people own a house with a garage and never take road trips further than 250 miles (or own a second car with which to do so), but I'm not one of those people. I suspect, though, that there's more of us than you might think.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    If you can charge at your parents' place (a dryer outlet would do fine) then you should be good to go in that respect. Maybe wait until the Seabrook, NH supercharger is done so you can top up on the way, since 270 miles one way is pushing it. Or buy the CHAdeMO adapter and patronize one of the stations in Portland. CHAdeMO isn't as fast as a Supercharger, but it's fast enough to be a practical bridge for road trips. Lack of charging at home is a big problem for sure. I would not buy a Model S if I couldn't charge it where I lived. Many apartment building owners are amenable to installing chargers, but many aren't. Note that you don't necessarily need a garage, just dedicated parking somewhere reasonably close to electrical infrastructure. Houses with at least carports or driveways are pretty common places to live. "Never take road trips further than 250 miles" needs a strong amendment. "Never take road trips further than 250 miles where charging can't be done at the destination and you're outside the supercharger network and away from CHAdeMO stations." Sure, it happens, but it's pretty rare. If you're staying within the Supercharger network, or you stay within one-way range and can plug in at your destination, then trips over 250 miles are no problem.
    - kylec 11y ago
      I don't know if I'd amend that statement that far. Even if there's a supercharger on the route, we haven't yet talked about the time required to let the car charge back up for the remainder of the journey. If you're on a 400 mile road trip, you can drive the first 250 or so on a fully charged Tesla, but then you'll need to stop for a half hour at a Supercharger and let your car charge up to get the remaining 150 miles. If there's no Supercharger around and you need to stop at a conventional EV charger, be prepared to wait an hour or more. Because of the non-trivial time increase once you go beyond the initial range of the car, I know I'd be less likely to want to take trips beyond it, even if they were technically doable.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        OK, then add "and take reasonable breaks" to the amendment. Stopping for 20-30 minutes every 150 miles or so isn't a burden for most people. Some people really like to push. But you really should be stopping that long, that often, regardless of what you're driving. People don't always do it, but they should. As I mentioned in a comment elsewhere, the impact of charging time really depends on what you do in that time. If you can time your charging to coincide with a meal, for example, then the actual penalty from charging is zero. If you're doing a 400 mile road trip and you can make your supercharging stop your lunch stop, then you'll lose less time to charging than you'd lose to filling the tank of a gas car. Obviously that's a big if and it's not at all guaranteed, but the point is that this isn't an absolute, and "30 minutes to charge" shouldn't be thought of as being the equivalent of "30 minutes to fill the gas tank." Personally I love long trips in the Model S. Part of that is just because the car is extremely comfortable and easy to drive, which makes long trips much less tiring. I'm sure that would come with other cars in that price range too, so not something that's exclusive to Tesla. The extra charging time has not so far been at all an issue. I've made three trips beyond the range of the car in the six months I've had it, and my total time spent waiting for the car to charge is zero. I'm sure that will start to become non-zero when I want to do, say, 500 miles in a day, but I still look forward to longer trips in it more than I did in my previous cars.
- forgetsusername 11y ago
  >"With a normal car, you have to worry about how much gas you have, when and where you'll stop to fill up" Okay, people might exaggerate "range anxiety" on the Teslas. But you're definitely reaching here: when and where to fill up a gasoline car? How about 24 hours a day on almost any street corner in the country. Running out of fuel isn't even on the radar.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    I drove gas cars for about two decades, and owned them for about one decade. I've only been doing the EV thing for about half a year. So it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about here. No, it's not a particularly big deal, but it's a constant low-level refrain. If I'm leaving in the morning for something time-sensitive, do I have to build an extra ten minutes into my schedule for a gas stop? What if I haven't been paying attention and discover fuel is running low when I'm on the highway and the next exit is in 20 miles? What if I pick the wrong street corner and get gouged? (The closest gas station to my house charges $2.49/gallon right now. While driving this morning I passed a station not too far away that charges $3.49/gallon.) Filling up your gas car from time to time is not difficult. But it is something you have to think about from time to time. If you don't think about it, you'll occasionally find yourself having to make an unscheduled stop somewhere. It's small but non-zero. An EV is easier. I don't think it's a particularly big deal. It's a nice convenience to have, but it wouldn't make or break the decision for buying a car. But I think it's a useful counterpoint to people who talk about how difficult or inconvenient charging is. 99% of the time it is easier than gas.
    - kylec 11y ago
      What if you haven't been paying attention and discover your batteries are running low when you're on the highway and the next exit is in 20 miles? What are the chances you'll be able to find somewhere to charge before your car stops? Also, just like how you charge your Tesla every night, I think most gas-powered car owners keep an eye on their fuel and will fill up the night before if they don't have time to stop in the morning. That's really a non-issue as well. Yes, owners of gas-powered cars will need to make impromptu, unscheduled stops to fill up, but EV owners have to constantly be planning in advance to know that they'll be able to hit the next charging point, because if they don't make it their car is going to be making the rest of the journey on the back of a flatbed truck.
vvanders 11y ago
It was more a dig in jest at the usual 320i/328i BMW owner who buys it more for the image then any interest in performance. (full disclosure I own an 85D and don't find anything you listed very limiting).
- kylec 11y ago
  Right, but the Tesla is way out the price range of the 320i/328i. You can buy an M5, which does have serious performance, for the price of a P85D.
dublinben 11y ago
Nearly all drivers go less than 50 miles in any given day. Trips longer than 70 miles (still well within the range of a Tesla) make up one percent of trips. A premium electric car like the Tesla is perfectly capable of being a daily driver for essentially anyone.
- kylec 11y ago
  Maybe what's different in my case is that I was looking to only own one car. While the Tesla might be sufficient for what I need 90% of the time, I still need it to be able to go on long trips, because I do take them occasionally.
  - eclipxe 11y ago
    Rental?
    - dragontamer 11y ago
      You're gonna buy a $100k+ car that doesn't satisfy all of your needs, and requires you to grab a _rental_ to fill in the gaps? EDIT: BTW, I think that electric cars are cool, and even got a garage in my house so that I can go electric some time in the future. But I can imagine that for some people, the lifestyle won't work for them. So for those people... its probably best to admit that Electric isn't for them.
- semi-extrinsic 11y ago
  Even if it is capable of being a daily driver, I recently saw numbers here in Norway* showing that more than 75% of Tesla owners also own and regularly drive one or more gas (or diesel) cars. I believe the inability to tow stuff, and the limited luggage space (which won't improve too much with the Model X either), are both important reasons why people keep their Volvo V70's etc. around. * (second only to the US in total Tesla sales, highest per-capita sales in the world)
varelse 11y ago
If all you care about is 0-60, the Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat does it in a nearly as stupendous 3.4s and beats the Tesla by 0.4 seconds on the quarter mile for half the price... http://www.caranddriver.com/dodge/charger-srt-srt-hellcat http://www.caranddriver.com/dodge/charger-srt-srt-hellcat I personally don't like either of them, but just saying...
- tempestn 11y ago
  Amusingly, the description in that link is now inaccurate: "Newly available is the Hellcat, which makes an amazing 707 hp from its supercharged 6.2-liter V-8, making it the most powerful production sedan on earth." (Thanks to the P85D with Ludicrous mode, at 762 hp.)
  - varelse 11y ago
    Except for the people who take these things to 11: http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/2015-dodge-srt-charger-hellcat-hpe8001.html http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/2015-dodge-srt-charger-h...

by kylec 11y ago

mikeash 11y ago

Do you drive more than 250 miles in a day on a regular basis? When you do drive that far, do you do it on routes that aren't covered by Tesla's Supercharger network? As a daily driver, the Tesla is easier to deal with than a normal car. With a normal car, you have to worry about how much gas you have, when and where you'll stop to fill up, etc. My Model S is full in the morning every time. For trips that exceed the range available on a single charge you do have to think a little bit more. But for the vast majority of destinations, it's not hard. If you're going to be regularly driving to a place without adequate charging infrastructure then yes, the Tesla is not for you, but that's a relatively small number of people. When you say, "range, charging availability, etc." what does the "etc." refer to? I would not even put charging availability on that list. Range is a limitation for sure, although not a terribly bad one, but I can't think of anything else.

kylec 11y ago
I live in Massachusetts, and I regularly visit my parents in Maine, which is about 270 miles away. There are no Superchargers along the route, at my parents' house, nor indeed anywhere in Maine. I also live in an apartment, and there is no electric car charging here, so I'd probably have to frequent the local Supercharger to keep it topped off. The "etc" covers things like not having physical controls for adjusting the climate and sound systems, as well as a generally substandard interior for a $100K car. Not dealbreakers per se, but factors that leaned me away from considering the car. I don't know if I'm in the minority here, maybe I am. Maybe most people own a house with a garage and never take road trips further than 250 miles (or own a second car with which to do so), but I'm not one of those people. I suspect, though, that there's more of us than you might think.
- mikeash 11y ago
  If you can charge at your parents' place (a dryer outlet would do fine) then you should be good to go in that respect. Maybe wait until the Seabrook, NH supercharger is done so you can top up on the way, since 270 miles one way is pushing it. Or buy the CHAdeMO adapter and patronize one of the stations in Portland. CHAdeMO isn't as fast as a Supercharger, but it's fast enough to be a practical bridge for road trips. Lack of charging at home is a big problem for sure. I would not buy a Model S if I couldn't charge it where I lived. Many apartment building owners are amenable to installing chargers, but many aren't. Note that you don't necessarily need a garage, just dedicated parking somewhere reasonably close to electrical infrastructure. Houses with at least carports or driveways are pretty common places to live. "Never take road trips further than 250 miles" needs a strong amendment. "Never take road trips further than 250 miles where charging can't be done at the destination and you're outside the supercharger network and away from CHAdeMO stations." Sure, it happens, but it's pretty rare. If you're staying within the Supercharger network, or you stay within one-way range and can plug in at your destination, then trips over 250 miles are no problem.
  - kylec 11y ago
    I don't know if I'd amend that statement that far. Even if there's a supercharger on the route, we haven't yet talked about the time required to let the car charge back up for the remainder of the journey. If you're on a 400 mile road trip, you can drive the first 250 or so on a fully charged Tesla, but then you'll need to stop for a half hour at a Supercharger and let your car charge up to get the remaining 150 miles. If there's no Supercharger around and you need to stop at a conventional EV charger, be prepared to wait an hour or more. Because of the non-trivial time increase once you go beyond the initial range of the car, I know I'd be less likely to want to take trips beyond it, even if they were technically doable.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      OK, then add "and take reasonable breaks" to the amendment. Stopping for 20-30 minutes every 150 miles or so isn't a burden for most people. Some people really like to push. But you really should be stopping that long, that often, regardless of what you're driving. People don't always do it, but they should. As I mentioned in a comment elsewhere, the impact of charging time really depends on what you do in that time. If you can time your charging to coincide with a meal, for example, then the actual penalty from charging is zero. If you're doing a 400 mile road trip and you can make your supercharging stop your lunch stop, then you'll lose less time to charging than you'd lose to filling the tank of a gas car. Obviously that's a big if and it's not at all guaranteed, but the point is that this isn't an absolute, and "30 minutes to charge" shouldn't be thought of as being the equivalent of "30 minutes to fill the gas tank." Personally I love long trips in the Model S. Part of that is just because the car is extremely comfortable and easy to drive, which makes long trips much less tiring. I'm sure that would come with other cars in that price range too, so not something that's exclusive to Tesla. The extra charging time has not so far been at all an issue. I've made three trips beyond the range of the car in the six months I've had it, and my total time spent waiting for the car to charge is zero. I'm sure that will start to become non-zero when I want to do, say, 500 miles in a day, but I still look forward to longer trips in it more than I did in my previous cars.
forgetsusername 11y ago
>"With a normal car, you have to worry about how much gas you have, when and where you'll stop to fill up" Okay, people might exaggerate "range anxiety" on the Teslas. But you're definitely reaching here: when and where to fill up a gasoline car? How about 24 hours a day on almost any street corner in the country. Running out of fuel isn't even on the radar.
- mikeash 11y ago
  I drove gas cars for about two decades, and owned them for about one decade. I've only been doing the EV thing for about half a year. So it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about here. No, it's not a particularly big deal, but it's a constant low-level refrain. If I'm leaving in the morning for something time-sensitive, do I have to build an extra ten minutes into my schedule for a gas stop? What if I haven't been paying attention and discover fuel is running low when I'm on the highway and the next exit is in 20 miles? What if I pick the wrong street corner and get gouged? (The closest gas station to my house charges $2.49/gallon right now. While driving this morning I passed a station not too far away that charges $3.49/gallon.) Filling up your gas car from time to time is not difficult. But it is something you have to think about from time to time. If you don't think about it, you'll occasionally find yourself having to make an unscheduled stop somewhere. It's small but non-zero. An EV is easier. I don't think it's a particularly big deal. It's a nice convenience to have, but it wouldn't make or break the decision for buying a car. But I think it's a useful counterpoint to people who talk about how difficult or inconvenient charging is. 99% of the time it is easier than gas.
  - kylec 11y ago
    What if you haven't been paying attention and discover your batteries are running low when you're on the highway and the next exit is in 20 miles? What are the chances you'll be able to find somewhere to charge before your car stops? Also, just like how you charge your Tesla every night, I think most gas-powered car owners keep an eye on their fuel and will fill up the night before if they don't have time to stop in the morning. That's really a non-issue as well. Yes, owners of gas-powered cars will need to make impromptu, unscheduled stops to fill up, but EV owners have to constantly be planning in advance to know that they'll be able to hit the next charging point, because if they don't make it their car is going to be making the rest of the journey on the back of a flatbed truck.

vvanders 11y ago

It was more a dig in jest at the usual 320i/328i BMW owner who buys it more for the image then any interest in performance. (full disclosure I own an 85D and don't find anything you listed very limiting).

kylec 11y ago
Right, but the Tesla is way out the price range of the 320i/328i. You can buy an M5, which does have serious performance, for the price of a P85D.

dublinben 11y ago

Nearly all drivers go less than 50 miles in any given day. Trips longer than 70 miles (still well within the range of a Tesla) make up one percent of trips. A premium electric car like the Tesla is perfectly capable of being a daily driver for essentially anyone.

kylec 11y ago
Maybe what's different in my case is that I was looking to only own one car. While the Tesla might be sufficient for what I need 90% of the time, I still need it to be able to go on long trips, because I do take them occasionally.
- eclipxe 11y ago
  Rental?
  - dragontamer 11y ago
    You're gonna buy a $100k+ car that doesn't satisfy all of your needs, and requires you to grab a _rental_ to fill in the gaps? EDIT: BTW, I think that electric cars are cool, and even got a garage in my house so that I can go electric some time in the future. But I can imagine that for some people, the lifestyle won't work for them. So for those people... its probably best to admit that Electric isn't for them.
semi-extrinsic 11y ago
Even if it is capable of being a daily driver, I recently saw numbers here in Norway* showing that more than 75% of Tesla owners also own and regularly drive one or more gas (or diesel) cars. I believe the inability to tow stuff, and the limited luggage space (which won't improve too much with the Model X either), are both important reasons why people keep their Volvo V70's etc. around. * (second only to the US in total Tesla sales, highest per-capita sales in the world)

varelse 11y ago

If all you care about is 0-60, the Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat does it in a nearly as stupendous 3.4s and beats the Tesla by 0.4 seconds on the quarter mile for half the price... http://www.caranddriver.com/dodge/charger-srt-srt-hellcat http://www.caranddriver.com/dodge/charger-srt-srt-hellcat I personally don't like either of them, but just saying...

tempestn 11y ago
Amusingly, the description in that link is now inaccurate: "Newly available is the Hellcat, which makes an amazing 707 hp from its supercharged 6.2-liter V-8, making it the most powerful production sedan on earth." (Thanks to the P85D with Ludicrous mode, at 762 hp.)
- varelse 11y ago
  Except for the people who take these things to 11: http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/2015-dodge-srt-charger-hellcat-hpe8001.html http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/2015-dodge-srt-charger-h...