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> Sincere question, but when did that happen? I suspect that you're conflating Gracie Jiu-Jitsu with MMA. The art of jiu-jitsu seems to me to be as passive as i

> Sincere question, but when did that happen? I suspect that you're conflating Gracie Jiu-Jitsu with MMA. The art of jiu-jitsu seems to me to be as passive as it ever has been. There've always been choke holds, and armbars, and while the techniques evolve over time, none of that has changed in BJJ. Fair question, and I'll readily admit I have limited experience with BJJ. However, at my first judo dojo, we shared space with a BJJ club, and I watched them perform locks on joints that are verboten in judo as practiced today--the reason being safety. Funny enough, aikido even has joint locks (wrist) that aren't done in competition judo due to the potential for injury when applied during shiai. As Wikipedia describes it, however, the presence of some of these techniques is due to BJJ forking early from Kodokan judo. So, I have my chronology a bit wrong. BJJ didn't (in this traditional form) re-brutalize judo; it forked from an earlier more brutal form of judo, and judo evolved toward less injury. In terms of small joint manipulation, I don't know about BJJ. However, I studied for a while in Danzan Ryu jujitsu in a blessedly not-testosterone-fueled environment. And that style very definitely had finger and toe locks. They were often combined with pins and were left in place as the final application of submission hold on someone you intended to extricate yourself from--mainly to make sure they weren't going to get up as you were trying to put distance between yourself. That escape aspect might have been my instructor's own flourish from aikido / Daito ryu training though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu#Divergence_from_Kodokan_rules https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu#Divergen...

metamet 11y ago
Having experience in both, there are far fewer injuries in BJJ than Judo. While BJJ does practice takedowns, it is not the primary focus of the sport, where Judo always starts standing. You rarely, if ever, get injured from a joint lock, even when rolling (sparring) or competing in a tournament in BJJ. Wrist locks and heel hooks are mentioned and practiced early on in BJJ, but they are not permitted as techniques to use on or by white belts while rolling. It is certainly a riskier submission, as you don't tend to feel it before it's too late, but I have never seen someone injured by a joint lock in years of training when it wasn't admittedly their fault (ie: they didn't tap when they should have). But I have seen quite a few shoulder injuries from takedowns, in both Judo and BJJ. People need to learn how to fall properly, but accidents do happen.
- peatmoss 11y ago
  > Having experience in both, there are far fewer injuries in BJJ than Judo. I'd actually be curious to know what the stats on that are. I certainly don't think either of our anecdata are sufficient to answer the question. However, as noted in the wikipedia article I linked earlier, the judo's banning of various joint locks that are not banned in BJJ was done from a safety motivation. In principle, I'm open to the idea that these modifications of judo were not effective in their intended purpose to reduce injury. However, given some knowledge of (non-arm) joint locking techniques, an observed reduction in injury seems highly plausible. In short, I'm open to the possibility that the locks in BJJ don't constitute a significant additional risk above and beyond judo. However, judo's ban on BJJ-sanctioned locks does not strike me as particularly ill conceived.
  - metamet 11y ago
    Stats would be interesting. I rarely see injuries in BJJ, whether that's at the gym or at a tournament. Even then, it's most commonly due to an overextended armbar and someone not tapping soon enough. You also don't spend a lot of time in Judo attempting to submit or defending a submission. There's a lot of talk that Judo's bans have really watered the sport down, including things as fundamental as what sleeve grips are allowed, such as being unable to break an opponent's grip with two hands. It's becoming a point-fighting martial art in competition. Heel hooks are dangerous because they don't hurt and someone untrained in them (and particularly hard headed) may not tap in time. You can feel most joint locks, such as knee bars and arm bars, so it's safe to know when it's time to tap. Wrist locks aren't very common in BJJ. Aikido does far more wrist locks. We don't train them in BJJ very often because they aren't very effective and are easy to get out of. Most blood chokes, including arm and leg triangles, are easy to tap to and low risk. Sometimes someone may put on a choke that is a trachea choke, but the worst you have there is a sore throat. Neck cranks are also no-no's for lower belts. Shoulders are, by far, the most common place of injury. The most dangerous subs are usually shoulder locks, such as Americana and Kimura, as people have vastly different flexibility. And, as I mentioned earlier, getting injured from takedowns.
    - 11y ago

metamet 11y ago

Having experience in both, there are far fewer injuries in BJJ than Judo. While BJJ does practice takedowns, it is not the primary focus of the sport, where Judo always starts standing. You rarely, if ever, get injured from a joint lock, even when rolling (sparring) or competing in a tournament in BJJ. Wrist locks and heel hooks are mentioned and practiced early on in BJJ, but they are not permitted as techniques to use on or by white belts while rolling. It is certainly a riskier submission, as you don't tend to feel it before it's too late, but I have never seen someone injured by a joint lock in years of training when it wasn't admittedly their fault (ie: they didn't tap when they should have). But I have seen quite a few shoulder injuries from takedowns, in both Judo and BJJ. People need to learn how to fall properly, but accidents do happen.

peatmoss 11y ago
> Having experience in both, there are far fewer injuries in BJJ than Judo. I'd actually be curious to know what the stats on that are. I certainly don't think either of our anecdata are sufficient to answer the question. However, as noted in the wikipedia article I linked earlier, the judo's banning of various joint locks that are not banned in BJJ was done from a safety motivation. In principle, I'm open to the idea that these modifications of judo were not effective in their intended purpose to reduce injury. However, given some knowledge of (non-arm) joint locking techniques, an observed reduction in injury seems highly plausible. In short, I'm open to the possibility that the locks in BJJ don't constitute a significant additional risk above and beyond judo. However, judo's ban on BJJ-sanctioned locks does not strike me as particularly ill conceived.
- metamet 11y ago
  Stats would be interesting. I rarely see injuries in BJJ, whether that's at the gym or at a tournament. Even then, it's most commonly due to an overextended armbar and someone not tapping soon enough. You also don't spend a lot of time in Judo attempting to submit or defending a submission. There's a lot of talk that Judo's bans have really watered the sport down, including things as fundamental as what sleeve grips are allowed, such as being unable to break an opponent's grip with two hands. It's becoming a point-fighting martial art in competition. Heel hooks are dangerous because they don't hurt and someone untrained in them (and particularly hard headed) may not tap in time. You can feel most joint locks, such as knee bars and arm bars, so it's safe to know when it's time to tap. Wrist locks aren't very common in BJJ. Aikido does far more wrist locks. We don't train them in BJJ very often because they aren't very effective and are easy to get out of. Most blood chokes, including arm and leg triangles, are easy to tap to and low risk. Sometimes someone may put on a choke that is a trachea choke, but the worst you have there is a sore throat. Neck cranks are also no-no's for lower belts. Shoulders are, by far, the most common place of injury. The most dangerous subs are usually shoulder locks, such as Americana and Kimura, as people have vastly different flexibility. And, as I mentioned earlier, getting injured from takedowns.
  - 11y ago