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I'm not defending anyone - I'm seeking to understand your point of view better. But language like "Marshaled his supporters" makes me wonder if there's somethin

I'm not defending anyone - I'm seeking to understand your point of view better. But language like "Marshaled his supporters" makes me wonder if there's something else I've missed. I use XMonad and quite like it other haskellers I know have moved on to i3. Not sure I've ever seen it being "spammed". The if it compiles works thing... That's unfortunately overblown and hyperbolic, but in my experience of the Haskell community in London, it's usually uttered as a tongue in cheek joke. I'm not sure I'd characterize it as condescendingly spewing falsehoods. However, let me tell you about my first experience building a little thing while learning Haskell: As a total newbie, I wanted to pull some timeseries from a database and plot them on a UI. It took me days of grabbing some time here and there, learning which DB library I should use and how the diagrams package worked. I finally got it to compile without any errors. As a python programmer this was a completely new way of programming for me, and I now fully expected the real work of making it run to begin. The VERY first time I ran it - up popped a timeseries visualization. Mind. Blown! So as you state it, "if it compiles it works" might be a falsehood, but there's more than a grain of truth there. As for your other comment. What Tim actually said was: > An institution that teaches Python under the banner of computer science, certainly loses prestige in my opinion He didn't say that he "can't respect" it, nor did he say that CS should exclusively be taught in Haskell. He said, that teaching it in python lowers its prestige (and later clarifies that he means that as a vehicle for teaching CS rather than programming). As I mentioned, I'm a self taught programmer, beginning with python. Since then I've worked at hedge funds and investment banks in python and built a startup on Haskell. My opinion is built on my own direct experience, and I find it somewhat disrespectful that you dismiss it as "drinking the Haskell Kool-Aid".

fp-incompletd 11y ago
Do you seriously believe that if xmonad had been written in anything else (and perhaps by anyone else) HN and proggit still would have been inundated with as many posts about it as they were? Please. It was rediculously obvious to anyone (or at least it should have been) what was going on. "The VERY first time I ran it - up popped a timeseries visualization. Mind. Blown!" Almost every programmer using almost every language has experiences like this. That hardly justifies making such expansive claims, claims that even a dependently-typed language would have difficulty justifying. "Since then I've worked at hedge funds and investment banks in python and built a startup on Haskell. My opinion is built on my own direct experience, and I find it somewhat disrespectful that you dismiss it as "drinking the Haskell Kool-Aid" I am not trying to be disrespectful to you, but I think you are being far to charitable in your interpretation of the conduct of your peers in the Haskell community.
- mightybyte 11y ago
  > I am not trying to be disrespectful to you, but I think you are being far to charitable in your interpretation of the conduct of your peers in the Haskell community. This is probably where the disconnect lies. It seems like boothead is operating under the principle of charity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity). HN's guidelines don't specifically mention it but seem like they have this principle in mind. You have absolutely no evidence that dons actually "marshaled his supporters to spam" and accusations that he did are not very charitable (as you yourself admit). It's just as likely that some people got really excited about it and posted it to HN.
  - fp-incompletd 11y ago
    I operate under the principle of common sense. Why so many posts about a tiling window manager, and why xmonad and not i3, ratpoison, or dwm? Because it was written in Haskell and was thus being used as a vehicle to aggressively (if ineffectively) push the language on people. As for dons, he's posted plenty of xmonad crap here and on proggit, where he also happens to be a mod.
    - jeorgun 11y ago
      I think it's undeniable that a substantial portion of the interest in XMonad came about because it's written in Haskell, but that's very different from saying that all of the interest in it comes from a concerted propaganda campaign on the part of the Haskell community.
    - mercurial 11y ago
      Ok, you don't like XMonad or Haskell, fine. I use XMonad daily. It has a giant pile of contributed modules, it's extremely flexible and used by a reasonable amount of people. I can give you one reason for not i3, ratpoison or dwm: as far as I know, they are all manual tiling WM (no notion of "master" window like XMonad). They're still tiling WMs, but of a different breed.

fp-incompletd 11y ago

Do you seriously believe that if xmonad had been written in anything else (and perhaps by anyone else) HN and proggit still would have been inundated with as many posts about it as they were? Please. It was rediculously obvious to anyone (or at least it should have been) what was going on. "The VERY first time I ran it - up popped a timeseries visualization. Mind. Blown!" Almost every programmer using almost every language has experiences like this. That hardly justifies making such expansive claims, claims that even a dependently-typed language would have difficulty justifying. "Since then I've worked at hedge funds and investment banks in python and built a startup on Haskell. My opinion is built on my own direct experience, and I find it somewhat disrespectful that you dismiss it as "drinking the Haskell Kool-Aid" I am not trying to be disrespectful to you, but I think you are being far to charitable in your interpretation of the conduct of your peers in the Haskell community.

mightybyte 11y ago
> I am not trying to be disrespectful to you, but I think you are being far to charitable in your interpretation of the conduct of your peers in the Haskell community. This is probably where the disconnect lies. It seems like boothead is operating under the principle of charity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity). HN's guidelines don't specifically mention it but seem like they have this principle in mind. You have absolutely no evidence that dons actually "marshaled his supporters to spam" and accusations that he did are not very charitable (as you yourself admit). It's just as likely that some people got really excited about it and posted it to HN.
- fp-incompletd 11y ago
  I operate under the principle of common sense. Why so many posts about a tiling window manager, and why xmonad and not i3, ratpoison, or dwm? Because it was written in Haskell and was thus being used as a vehicle to aggressively (if ineffectively) push the language on people. As for dons, he's posted plenty of xmonad crap here and on proggit, where he also happens to be a mod.
  - jeorgun 11y ago
    I think it's undeniable that a substantial portion of the interest in XMonad came about because it's written in Haskell, but that's very different from saying that all of the interest in it comes from a concerted propaganda campaign on the part of the Haskell community.
  - mercurial 11y ago
    Ok, you don't like XMonad or Haskell, fine. I use XMonad daily. It has a giant pile of contributed modules, it's extremely flexible and used by a reasonable amount of people. I can give you one reason for not i3, ratpoison or dwm: as far as I know, they are all manual tiling WM (no notion of "master" window like XMonad). They're still tiling WMs, but of a different breed.