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If we had a world even remotely like 1984, there would be blood on the streets. The privacy zealots overplay this as if the NSA is capable of magic, and that th

If we had a world even remotely like 1984, there would be blood on the streets. The privacy zealots overplay this as if the NSA is capable of magic, and that they are omnipresent on every network. It's like saying that every user on the Internet is fumbling around in the dark and doesn't know what they're doing. As we all know, there are very smart people on the network who could possibly outsmart the NSA, but media theater likes to champion the NSA as our new overlords. This is not magic. The NSA collaborating like this is what happens when you give 6 billion people an Internet connection. Of course you get zero day stockpiles. Of course you get back alley deals

rocky1138 11y ago
I think that when the majority of people on the Internet are non-technical Android and iPhone users, browsing Facebook and Instagramming lunch, from that perspective, the NSA really is on every network.
mindcrime 11y ago
and that they are omnipresent on every network. From the disclosures we got from Snowden, as well as previous revelations about the NSA, the evidence points to a situation pretty damn close to that. They are grabbing data from all sorts of social networks, we know they scarf up email, we know at least they grab most - if not all - phone metadata, and we know they're tapping underseas fiber-optic cables that represent backbone Internet links between countries. We know carriers like AT&T graciously make data off their networks available to the NSA, and we know they do these smokey back-room deals with the other Five Eyes countries, and now Germany as well. I see no reason to think they aren't doing similar deals with most other "friendly" countries. And let's not get into the backdooring routers and commercial software, and attempts to weaken encryption standards. To say that we aren't already "in a world remotely like 1984" strikes me either disingenuous (Hello, NSA employee?) or uninformed. Would you care to say what else the NSA would have to do (or what we'd have to find out they're doing) before you say we are "remotely close to 1984"?
- signaler 11y ago
  1984 is a nice bit of canon for the privacy conscious, but it is also a work of fiction, and can quickly be co-opted by the paranoiac fringe community as being something that exists. > What else the NSA would have to do (or what we'd have to find out they're doing) before you say we are "remotely close to 1984"? They would have to know our private thoughts. They would have to read our paper diaries. They would have to disallow me closing my curtains at night. They would have to hear me telling my girlfriend I love her. All the clusters of GPUs and corridors of big data will not know my private thoughts. I see your handle is mindcrime, but as I said; there would be blood on the streets if they started infiltrating the substrate of our craniums.
  - mindcrime 11y ago
    They would have to know our private thoughts. They would have to read our paper diaries. They would have to disallow me closing my curtains at night. They would have to hear me telling my girlfriend I love her. And you think that's what it would take to be "remotely close"? I don't get it. From what I remember of Nineteen Eighty Four that scenario would put us absolutely on par with the description in the book. I believe that we are far more than "remotely close" already. But that's just me. shrug
    - signaler 11y ago
      > And you think that's what it would take to be "remotely close"? Basically any AFK stuff is pushing it, and apt to be very invasive of privacy and truly Orwellian. The distinction I make is the NSA resides on the network and doesn't go much further than that. Is what they're doing Orwellian on the network? Possibly, but only insofar as I let them on my network. Who is to say I don't use secure meshnets? Who is to say I don't watch the watchmen? I respect your thoughts on the matter, and the current narrative does suggest we are tending towards a 1984 panopticon, but this is also framed in the context of pervasive CCTV, and presumes that every citizen is glued to their smartphone. Measures like CCTV and smartphone tracking observe the citizenry and this means everyone is kept in line and the system works, so fair dues, this could be seen as 1984'ish. But again, only insofar as the citizen opts in. It is said we would prefer to be watched than go about our private business alone. (And yes CCTV can be opt in, but that is a lot harder to achieve and ironically requires Google Maps hacking to pinpoint where key CCTV hotspots are) TL;DR: I don't negate 1984'ish elements, I'm simply saying they are opt-in only, and not as bad as the current narrative suggests.

rocky1138 11y ago

I think that when the majority of people on the Internet are non-technical Android and iPhone users, browsing Facebook and Instagramming lunch, from that perspective, the NSA really is on every network.

mindcrime 11y ago

and that they are omnipresent on every network. From the disclosures we got from Snowden, as well as previous revelations about the NSA, the evidence points to a situation pretty damn close to that. They are grabbing data from all sorts of social networks, we know they scarf up email, we know at least they grab most - if not all - phone metadata, and we know they're tapping underseas fiber-optic cables that represent backbone Internet links between countries. We know carriers like AT&T graciously make data off their networks available to the NSA, and we know they do these smokey back-room deals with the other Five Eyes countries, and now Germany as well. I see no reason to think they aren't doing similar deals with most other "friendly" countries. And let's not get into the backdooring routers and commercial software, and attempts to weaken encryption standards. To say that we aren't already "in a world remotely like 1984" strikes me either disingenuous (Hello, NSA employee?) or uninformed. Would you care to say what else the NSA would have to do (or what we'd have to find out they're doing) before you say we are "remotely close to 1984"?

signaler 11y ago
1984 is a nice bit of canon for the privacy conscious, but it is also a work of fiction, and can quickly be co-opted by the paranoiac fringe community as being something that exists. > What else the NSA would have to do (or what we'd have to find out they're doing) before you say we are "remotely close to 1984"? They would have to know our private thoughts. They would have to read our paper diaries. They would have to disallow me closing my curtains at night. They would have to hear me telling my girlfriend I love her. All the clusters of GPUs and corridors of big data will not know my private thoughts. I see your handle is mindcrime, but as I said; there would be blood on the streets if they started infiltrating the substrate of our craniums.
- mindcrime 11y ago
  They would have to know our private thoughts. They would have to read our paper diaries. They would have to disallow me closing my curtains at night. They would have to hear me telling my girlfriend I love her. And you think that's what it would take to be "remotely close"? I don't get it. From what I remember of Nineteen Eighty Four that scenario would put us absolutely on par with the description in the book. I believe that we are far more than "remotely close" already. But that's just me. shrug
  - signaler 11y ago
    > And you think that's what it would take to be "remotely close"? Basically any AFK stuff is pushing it, and apt to be very invasive of privacy and truly Orwellian. The distinction I make is the NSA resides on the network and doesn't go much further than that. Is what they're doing Orwellian on the network? Possibly, but only insofar as I let them on my network. Who is to say I don't use secure meshnets? Who is to say I don't watch the watchmen? I respect your thoughts on the matter, and the current narrative does suggest we are tending towards a 1984 panopticon, but this is also framed in the context of pervasive CCTV, and presumes that every citizen is glued to their smartphone. Measures like CCTV and smartphone tracking observe the citizenry and this means everyone is kept in line and the system works, so fair dues, this could be seen as 1984'ish. But again, only insofar as the citizen opts in. It is said we would prefer to be watched than go about our private business alone. (And yes CCTV can be opt in, but that is a lot harder to achieve and ironically requires Google Maps hacking to pinpoint where key CCTV hotspots are) TL;DR: I don't negate 1984'ish elements, I'm simply saying they are opt-in only, and not as bad as the current narrative suggests.