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In life, you get to choose your actions, but you do not get to choose the consequences. Yes, some 'went through a rough patch' and 'already moved past this', a

In life, you get to choose your actions, but you do not get to choose the consequences. Yes, some 'went through a rough patch' and 'already moved past this', and are now dealing with a world of pain. But ask yourself, what makes you the authority on how much pain they should have endured for their mistake? As fate would have it, whatever 'moving past' they did will now be really put to the test. This will give some couples a second chance, to really ask themselves if all is forgiven. Yes, some 'innocents' are hurting now. Some spouses, some children maybe too. Is this the fault of the hackers? I'd argue not. Ask yourself, if it weren't for the actions of the people cheating, could this have ever happened? Ashley Madison wouldn't even exist, and this hack would never have transpired, if it weren't for the liars, and cheaters, who made such a site possible. So should we be upset at the hackers, who exposed liars, and cheaters? Or should we be upset at the liars and cheaters, who thought they would get away with it? It's the liars, and the cheaters who hurt their family, not the hackers.

ay 11y ago
Western married straight couples are an easy case to reason about. But take a look at the below. https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/3ebzzj/i_may_get_stoned_to_death_for_gay_sex_gay_man/ https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/3ebzzj/i_may_get_ston...
blawson 11y ago
Or people that had their email hijacked to create accounts? https://evan.atavist.com/my-wife-found-my-email-in-the-ashley-madison-database https://evan.atavist.com/my-wife-found-my-email-in-the-ashle... Imagine being accused of adultery just because someone else preferred to sign up for an account with an email address that wasn't their own.
timmytokyo 11y ago
You're only seeing one side of the problem. Put yourself in the shoes of someone whose spouse was exposed by this leak. Imagine how humiliated you would be, knowing that the whole world knows your spouse was cheating on you. Sure, it might be good to know the truth, but how does it help you that friends, family and even strangers know this about you? Not only that, but it's on the Internet, where your humiliation will be permanently recorded for all to see. Yes, there are consequences for the cheater. But there are also consequences for the cheater's victims, and they're significantly exacerbated by the public nature of the leak.
- rubicon33 11y ago
  I understand that 'side of the problem'. Trust me, it's not that I don't comprehend the impact this has on innocent people, I do, and it's very unfortunate. Where I differ, is in who I blame. It sounds like there is growing animosity toward the hackers, but that dumbfounds me. How could this hack have even transpired, if it weren't for the liars, and the cheaters, who funded this site? How could an innocent spouse be embarassed by their cheating wife, if their wife never cheated on them? Let's not get confused. The hack, exposed a morally reprehensible act by many. Here's a contrived example, that might help illuminate my point - Consider a corrupt police force in a city, where police are taking bribes, and working with organized crime, instead of helping the community. Should we shame a mole, who exposes the police force? If he does, the police will be out jobs, and will be exposed! Think about the families! You can see where I'm going with this...
jasonlotito 11y ago
> Is this the fault of the hackers? Yes. > I'd argue not. Wouldn't be much of an argument as you'd be wrong. Rather than going about other means to release this information privately, they dumped it on the world. They made that choice. > It's the liars, and the cheaters who hurt their family, not the hackers. Who are you to speak on behalf of everyone who has to deal with the outcome of this? I know for a fact that you are making some grand assumptions that are wrong. > Yes, some 'went through a rough patch' and 'already moved past this', and are now dealing with a world of pain. But ask yourself, what makes you the authority on how much pain they should have endured for their mistake? Unlike you, I give a damn about privacy. You clearly do not. What's your real name? Where do you work? Please, share with us the details of your life. I swear, people like you are terrible, terrible evil people. Not caring about people though their lives are on the line for doing absolutely nothing wrong. But no, just because they are associated with something you disagree with in some way, you feel it's their fault. You are awful.
- nkurz 11y ago
  You are jumping to unfair conclusions about the person you are replying to. You clearly disagree with him, but this is offensive. You should delete it.
  - rubicon33 11y ago
    Agreed.
  - knob 11y ago
    Offensive how?
    - nkurz 11y ago
      The declaration that "people like you are terrible, terrible evil people" is intentionally designed to offend the person to whom it is directed. It moves beyond the realm of civil conversation to a shouting match, and hence is inappropriate for a discussion forum. I (mostly) don't agree with 'rubicon33', but I'd prefer to keep an environment where his position can be discussed without personal insult.
task_queue 11y ago
Hackers publicly exposed personal information but it is not the their fault that the personal information was publicly exposed? I'm not sure how this follows. You seem to be very glad society hasn't moved on from the "Name and Shame" game. The one that ends in death, violence and shame for everyone close to and including the named.
- rubicon33 11y ago
  I believe in consequences, and personal responsibility. Yes, hacker's publicly exposed personal information, but it wasn't the personal information of Mother Teresa. I wonder if one's opinion on the ethical nature of this hack, hinges on your moral disposition on cheating/infidelity. I'll illuminate what I'm getting at, by asking you this hypothetical: If Ashley Madison were a website for child sex trafficking, and the names of registrants were exposed, leading to arrests, and public shaming... How would you feel? I'd be very surprised if you kept the same opinion, that publicly outing those individuals, was not a fit punishment for the crime. Given that, then this entire conversation is completely subjective, and based entirely on your opinion about cheating, lying, and infidelity.
  - task_queue 11y ago
    > If Ashley Madison were a website for child sex trafficking, and the names of registrants were exposed, leading to arrests, and public shaming... How would you feel? This is still an irresponsible exposure of personal information. This is still vigilante justice. What happens to the people whose identities were stolen and used on that site? Their lives will be ruined. It is not the public's responsibility to judge or prosecute/persecute. Give the database to the authorities. > I'd be very surprised if you kept the same opinion, that publicly outing those individuals, was not a fit punishment for the crime. Given that, then this entire conversation is completely subjective, and based entirely on your opinion about cheating, lying, and infidelity. This has nothing to do with what the people were doing and everything to do with mob justice and innocent people caught in the crossfire. Public disclosure of personal information is irresponsible and hurts everyone associated with the exposed. How is public shaming justice? Who are you to decide who and how to punish? What's an acceptable amount of innocent people to expose as cheaters/child traffickers? What about the amount of innocent family members and friends of the exposed that will get to experience this as well? How many of the gay men in Saudi Arabia exposed by this hack are allowed to be stoned to death before the ends do not justify the public exposure?
gambiter 11y ago
> what makes you the authority on how much pain they should have endured for their mistake? And what makes YOU the authority to say they haven't endured enough pain? Or society, for that matter? If a couple 'went through a rough patch' and 'already moved past this', the one who was wronged was apparently forgiving. That forgiveness should be the end of it. We all make stupid decisions in our lives, but just because we did those things, we don't DESERVE endless consequences. Your logic is a slippery slope to believing that rehabilitation is impossible. In which case, you're essentially arguing for immediate death (or at least shunning) to any wrongdoer, because how can any of us judge them to be rehabilitated?

ay 11y ago

Western married straight couples are an easy case to reason about. But take a look at the below. https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/3ebzzj/i_may_get_stoned_to_death_for_gay_sex_gay_man/ https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/3ebzzj/i_may_get_ston...

blawson 11y ago

Or people that had their email hijacked to create accounts? https://evan.atavist.com/my-wife-found-my-email-in-the-ashley-madison-database https://evan.atavist.com/my-wife-found-my-email-in-the-ashle... Imagine being accused of adultery just because someone else preferred to sign up for an account with an email address that wasn't their own.

timmytokyo 11y ago

You're only seeing one side of the problem. Put yourself in the shoes of someone whose spouse was exposed by this leak. Imagine how humiliated you would be, knowing that the whole world knows your spouse was cheating on you. Sure, it might be good to know the truth, but how does it help you that friends, family and even strangers know this about you? Not only that, but it's on the Internet, where your humiliation will be permanently recorded for all to see. Yes, there are consequences for the cheater. But there are also consequences for the cheater's victims, and they're significantly exacerbated by the public nature of the leak.

rubicon33 11y ago
I understand that 'side of the problem'. Trust me, it's not that I don't comprehend the impact this has on innocent people, I do, and it's very unfortunate. Where I differ, is in who I blame. It sounds like there is growing animosity toward the hackers, but that dumbfounds me. How could this hack have even transpired, if it weren't for the liars, and the cheaters, who funded this site? How could an innocent spouse be embarassed by their cheating wife, if their wife never cheated on them? Let's not get confused. The hack, exposed a morally reprehensible act by many. Here's a contrived example, that might help illuminate my point - Consider a corrupt police force in a city, where police are taking bribes, and working with organized crime, instead of helping the community. Should we shame a mole, who exposes the police force? If he does, the police will be out jobs, and will be exposed! Think about the families! You can see where I'm going with this...

jasonlotito 11y ago

> Is this the fault of the hackers? Yes. > I'd argue not. Wouldn't be much of an argument as you'd be wrong. Rather than going about other means to release this information privately, they dumped it on the world. They made that choice. > It's the liars, and the cheaters who hurt their family, not the hackers. Who are you to speak on behalf of everyone who has to deal with the outcome of this? I know for a fact that you are making some grand assumptions that are wrong. > Yes, some 'went through a rough patch' and 'already moved past this', and are now dealing with a world of pain. But ask yourself, what makes you the authority on how much pain they should have endured for their mistake? Unlike you, I give a damn about privacy. You clearly do not. What's your real name? Where do you work? Please, share with us the details of your life. I swear, people like you are terrible, terrible evil people. Not caring about people though their lives are on the line for doing absolutely nothing wrong. But no, just because they are associated with something you disagree with in some way, you feel it's their fault. You are awful.

nkurz 11y ago
You are jumping to unfair conclusions about the person you are replying to. You clearly disagree with him, but this is offensive. You should delete it.
- rubicon33 11y ago
  Agreed.
- knob 11y ago
  Offensive how?
  - nkurz 11y ago
    The declaration that "people like you are terrible, terrible evil people" is intentionally designed to offend the person to whom it is directed. It moves beyond the realm of civil conversation to a shouting match, and hence is inappropriate for a discussion forum. I (mostly) don't agree with 'rubicon33', but I'd prefer to keep an environment where his position can be discussed without personal insult.

task_queue 11y ago

Hackers publicly exposed personal information but it is not the their fault that the personal information was publicly exposed? I'm not sure how this follows. You seem to be very glad society hasn't moved on from the "Name and Shame" game. The one that ends in death, violence and shame for everyone close to and including the named.

rubicon33 11y ago
I believe in consequences, and personal responsibility. Yes, hacker's publicly exposed personal information, but it wasn't the personal information of Mother Teresa. I wonder if one's opinion on the ethical nature of this hack, hinges on your moral disposition on cheating/infidelity. I'll illuminate what I'm getting at, by asking you this hypothetical: If Ashley Madison were a website for child sex trafficking, and the names of registrants were exposed, leading to arrests, and public shaming... How would you feel? I'd be very surprised if you kept the same opinion, that publicly outing those individuals, was not a fit punishment for the crime. Given that, then this entire conversation is completely subjective, and based entirely on your opinion about cheating, lying, and infidelity.
- task_queue 11y ago
  > If Ashley Madison were a website for child sex trafficking, and the names of registrants were exposed, leading to arrests, and public shaming... How would you feel? This is still an irresponsible exposure of personal information. This is still vigilante justice. What happens to the people whose identities were stolen and used on that site? Their lives will be ruined. It is not the public's responsibility to judge or prosecute/persecute. Give the database to the authorities. > I'd be very surprised if you kept the same opinion, that publicly outing those individuals, was not a fit punishment for the crime. Given that, then this entire conversation is completely subjective, and based entirely on your opinion about cheating, lying, and infidelity. This has nothing to do with what the people were doing and everything to do with mob justice and innocent people caught in the crossfire. Public disclosure of personal information is irresponsible and hurts everyone associated with the exposed. How is public shaming justice? Who are you to decide who and how to punish? What's an acceptable amount of innocent people to expose as cheaters/child traffickers? What about the amount of innocent family members and friends of the exposed that will get to experience this as well? How many of the gay men in Saudi Arabia exposed by this hack are allowed to be stoned to death before the ends do not justify the public exposure?

gambiter 11y ago

> what makes you the authority on how much pain they should have endured for their mistake? And what makes YOU the authority to say they haven't endured enough pain? Or society, for that matter? If a couple 'went through a rough patch' and 'already moved past this', the one who was wronged was apparently forgiving. That forgiveness should be the end of it. We all make stupid decisions in our lives, but just because we did those things, we don't DESERVE endless consequences. Your logic is a slippery slope to believing that rehabilitation is impossible. In which case, you're essentially arguing for immediate death (or at least shunning) to any wrongdoer, because how can any of us judge them to be rehabilitated?