6 ms·

A Dubious Deal with the NSA

137 points by sinalc0 11y ago

dmix 11y ago
We can safely assume that the IRS and other countries tax agencies have systems like this - or will soon. Nearly every agency with enforcement powers will eventually too. Wiretaps are being used for everything these days and they need to parse this data. Just like the recent use of SWAT teams by even benign regulatory agencies (ie, raiding unlicensed clothing factories with assault rifles) - they will make use of new advanced enforcement techniques as the tech starts to trickle down from the top agencies. We (the tech community) all complained for years about the poor state of technology in government. But now they are catching up - and that technology is being combined with the great powers they hold. Creating something most people didn't expect. New levels of power it seems... which can be utilized extremely efficiently.
- benevol 11y ago
  > A new level of power it seems... You can drop "it seems". We all know where this is headed. And as with the other huge problems such as climate change, we'll try to change something once it really, really hurts. But that, I suppose, has already been said a thousand times, as well. There really isn't much more left to say...
- wahsd 11y ago
  I think there is significant enough opposition to the notion that the IRS would have such a capability that at the very least it will be the very last agency to get it. I can't see even the Republicans crossing that line.
  - ivanca 11y ago
    They cross any line anytime... that's easy to see if you know who is leading their presidential poll right now.
    - dogma1138 11y ago
      There are plenty of loons everywhere....
      - themartorana 11y ago
        What is the need to defend-through-balance? Just because Y isn't perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't point out and hold to full accountability the faults of X. X, here, being the Republican base which is, it seems, so much more radical than it has ever been before in my life. Y has all sorts of faults of their own, but there shouldn't be compulsion to hold it up as defense of X.
        dogma1138 11y ago
        It's not the need to defend through balance it's the constant push of the extremes to the spot light mostly by none-other than the opposition. Trump gets more air time (direct or in name) by the media which is aligned with the democratic party than say FOX news. And the republicans are no better one of the biggest pushes for Obama leading to the 2004 elections were the republicans with their constant "fascination" with him. Now I'm not comparing Obama to Trump here as an individual but as a candidate the rednecks hating on Obama pushed more democrats to his side because "we are supposed to object to them aren't we?" same thing goes here Trump is surprisingly quite a good public speaker, he knows how to work a crowed and he knows how rub people the wrong or well the right way to get the responses he wants from them. When the opposing party is attacking him day and night it not only give him free publicity but moves more and more people to his side because when you feel that your side is under attack you align yourself to "defend" it. This is the same reality that breaks or tears so many social movements especially on the internet apart since eventually they grow to the point where they have some many loons that that's the only thing that your "opposition" is attacking you with and well you can't side with them can't you now? And this isn't just happening to politics, this is the same human behavior that killed Greenpeace (all of it's founders were pushed aside by radicals) and why you can't tackle any serious issues whether it's wall street or global conflicts. Just try having a movement for a 2 state solutions in the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts you'll start with few ideals that want to open a good dialog, you'll end up absorbing BDS loons, people with signs that praise Hamas, your gatherings end up having "From the river to the sea Palestine will be free" chants that leave not room well for a 2 state solution. Animal rights? pfft you'll end having naked people running and spraying fake blood, social equality? that will turn into a Guy Fawkes look a like contest, the ease of inclusiveness which comes with the modern times pretty much exclude you from dealing with any major issue in a serious manner.
  - jlgaddis 11y ago
    Significant enough opposition from who? The public / the taxpayers? What makes you think they'd even let us know about it?
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Some (eg. Thiel) are even arming these states in return for lucrative subsidies.
revelation 11y ago
That's hilarious. One of the premier and foremost missions of the Verfassungsschutz is of course counter-intelligence. To support another countries foreign intelligence service (which is targeted with espionage on Germany) is nothing short of treason on an organized scale.
- nota_bene 11y ago
  Don't forget that borders are becoming less important. Corporate interests don't care about borders and national interests.
  - alyandon 11y ago
    Corporate interests care a great deal about borders so long as it allows them to artificially segment markets to derive maximum profitability (dvds, pharma, etc)!
- logicallee 11y ago
  >To support another country's foreign intelligence service (which is targeted with espionage on Germany) is nothing short of treason on an organized scale. Maybe, but the logical slippery slope if you do allow this happen is that in the end every country cooperates and their budget for counter-espionage looks like... the budget, say, California has to defend itself from Texas and Massachusetts, or for securing its borders from Arizona, Nevada, and Oregon by planting spies in those countries I mean states, or the FBI budget for counter-intel versus the CIA. All of which is exactly, precisely $0. In what conceivable world is it better for California to be spending that money on such hypothetical programs, or for taxpayers to fund the CIA in its attacks against the FBI, and to fund the FBI in its countermeasures against the CIA -- an idea that is total, complete madness - instead of putting it into education, roads, water, or whatever else you want that actually has any benefit to society whatsoever? The world is incredibly well-connected, and states don't need to be hacking other states. Whether you agree with surveillance or not, it is not difficult to argue that cooperation is a net benefit for all.
  - revelation 11y ago
codezero 11y ago
Does this have implications in that Getmany can collect data on US citizens, and by sharing with the NSA, the NSA can circumvent restrictions on collecting data on US citizens?
- btilly 11y ago
  It would guess not because the deal is that Germany is getting software for data. They are not being trusted with large amounts of data from the NSA. However the 5 Eyes share data freely with each other, and while there is no verification I would be shocked if the US did not file warrants against US citizens based on the testimony of analysts from the other 4. And once there is a warrant, of course, then the US can cheerfully look at its own data and see what they were told could be seen. My expectation is that this happens, and happens frequently. And not just for terrorism.
- throwawayaway 11y ago
  That's the deal with GCHQ, why would the BND be any different?
  - kriro 11y ago
    The deal isn't with the BND it's with the BfV which is for German interior issues only so spying outside of Germany is theoretically unlikely. [even though my guess would be that a similar deal with the BND is in place as well]
    - throwawayaway 11y ago
      Safe to assume deal is in place with both, yes.
- nota_bene 11y ago
  Realistically, we have to assume this, given the fact that this is the approach used by the "five eyes".
rocky1138 11y ago
Will we be seeing a movie made about this in 20 years as we did with "The Lives of Others" in 2006? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/
- flurpitude 11y ago
  No, in 20 years history will have been revised so that these events never took place.
  - wahsd 11y ago
    The internet will have been cleansed under emergency order ◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎
    - mindcrime 11y ago
      Subject washd - Mention of emergency order ◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎ is forbidden unless expressly permitted by an exemption granted under clause P97/X2 of Commandment ◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎. Your deviation has been noted and you are hereby commanded to appear at Re-education Camp #47 for a 2 hour Happiness and Gratitude Ritual.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - dogma1138 11y ago
        mindcrime you know the rules all electronic communication with the populi has to be presented in FOIA compliant encoding... █████████ ██████ ██ ██████ ███ █████████ ███████ ██████████████████ ███ █████████ ██████ ███████ ███████████ ██ ███████████ ████████ ██████ ████████ ███████████ ██ █████████████ ██████████████████. ███████ ██████████ ████ █████ ███████ ████ ████ ████ ███████ ████████ ██████████████ [CODE WORD REDACTED] ███ ██ ██ █████████ ████ ████████ ████████.
        themartorana 11y ago

137 points by sinalc0 11y ago

dmix 11y ago

We can safely assume that the IRS and other countries tax agencies have systems like this - or will soon. Nearly every agency with enforcement powers will eventually too. Wiretaps are being used for everything these days and they need to parse this data. Just like the recent use of SWAT teams by even benign regulatory agencies (ie, raiding unlicensed clothing factories with assault rifles) - they will make use of new advanced enforcement techniques as the tech starts to trickle down from the top agencies. We (the tech community) all complained for years about the poor state of technology in government. But now they are catching up - and that technology is being combined with the great powers they hold. Creating something most people didn't expect. New levels of power it seems... which can be utilized extremely efficiently.

benevol 11y ago
> A new level of power it seems... You can drop "it seems". We all know where this is headed. And as with the other huge problems such as climate change, we'll try to change something once it really, really hurts. But that, I suppose, has already been said a thousand times, as well. There really isn't much more left to say...
wahsd 11y ago
I think there is significant enough opposition to the notion that the IRS would have such a capability that at the very least it will be the very last agency to get it. I can't see even the Republicans crossing that line.
- ivanca 11y ago
  They cross any line anytime... that's easy to see if you know who is leading their presidential poll right now.
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    There are plenty of loons everywhere....
    - themartorana 11y ago
      What is the need to defend-through-balance? Just because Y isn't perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't point out and hold to full accountability the faults of X. X, here, being the Republican base which is, it seems, so much more radical than it has ever been before in my life. Y has all sorts of faults of their own, but there shouldn't be compulsion to hold it up as defense of X.
      - dogma1138 11y ago
        It's not the need to defend through balance it's the constant push of the extremes to the spot light mostly by none-other than the opposition. Trump gets more air time (direct or in name) by the media which is aligned with the democratic party than say FOX news. And the republicans are no better one of the biggest pushes for Obama leading to the 2004 elections were the republicans with their constant "fascination" with him. Now I'm not comparing Obama to Trump here as an individual but as a candidate the rednecks hating on Obama pushed more democrats to his side because "we are supposed to object to them aren't we?" same thing goes here Trump is surprisingly quite a good public speaker, he knows how to work a crowed and he knows how rub people the wrong or well the right way to get the responses he wants from them. When the opposing party is attacking him day and night it not only give him free publicity but moves more and more people to his side because when you feel that your side is under attack you align yourself to "defend" it. This is the same reality that breaks or tears so many social movements especially on the internet apart since eventually they grow to the point where they have some many loons that that's the only thing that your "opposition" is attacking you with and well you can't side with them can't you now? And this isn't just happening to politics, this is the same human behavior that killed Greenpeace (all of it's founders were pushed aside by radicals) and why you can't tackle any serious issues whether it's wall street or global conflicts. Just try having a movement for a 2 state solutions in the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts you'll start with few ideals that want to open a good dialog, you'll end up absorbing BDS loons, people with signs that praise Hamas, your gatherings end up having "From the river to the sea Palestine will be free" chants that leave not room well for a 2 state solution. Animal rights? pfft you'll end having naked people running and spraying fake blood, social equality? that will turn into a Guy Fawkes look a like contest, the ease of inclusiveness which comes with the modern times pretty much exclude you from dealing with any major issue in a serious manner.
- jlgaddis 11y ago
  Significant enough opposition from who? The public / the taxpayers? What makes you think they'd even let us know about it?
jsprogrammer 11y ago
Some (eg. Thiel) are even arming these states in return for lucrative subsidies.

revelation 11y ago

That's hilarious. One of the premier and foremost missions of the Verfassungsschutz is of course counter-intelligence. To support another countries foreign intelligence service (which is targeted with espionage on Germany) is nothing short of treason on an organized scale.

nota_bene 11y ago
Don't forget that borders are becoming less important. Corporate interests don't care about borders and national interests.
- alyandon 11y ago
  Corporate interests care a great deal about borders so long as it allows them to artificially segment markets to derive maximum profitability (dvds, pharma, etc)!
logicallee 11y ago
>To support another country's foreign intelligence service (which is targeted with espionage on Germany) is nothing short of treason on an organized scale. Maybe, but the logical slippery slope if you do allow this happen is that in the end every country cooperates and their budget for counter-espionage looks like... the budget, say, California has to defend itself from Texas and Massachusetts, or for securing its borders from Arizona, Nevada, and Oregon by planting spies in those countries I mean states, or the FBI budget for counter-intel versus the CIA. All of which is exactly, precisely $0. In what conceivable world is it better for California to be spending that money on such hypothetical programs, or for taxpayers to fund the CIA in its attacks against the FBI, and to fund the FBI in its countermeasures against the CIA -- an idea that is total, complete madness - instead of putting it into education, roads, water, or whatever else you want that actually has any benefit to society whatsoever? The world is incredibly well-connected, and states don't need to be hacking other states. Whether you agree with surveillance or not, it is not difficult to argue that cooperation is a net benefit for all.
- revelation 11y ago

codezero 11y ago

Does this have implications in that Getmany can collect data on US citizens, and by sharing with the NSA, the NSA can circumvent restrictions on collecting data on US citizens?

btilly 11y ago
It would guess not because the deal is that Germany is getting software for data. They are not being trusted with large amounts of data from the NSA. However the 5 Eyes share data freely with each other, and while there is no verification I would be shocked if the US did not file warrants against US citizens based on the testimony of analysts from the other 4. And once there is a warrant, of course, then the US can cheerfully look at its own data and see what they were told could be seen. My expectation is that this happens, and happens frequently. And not just for terrorism.
throwawayaway 11y ago
That's the deal with GCHQ, why would the BND be any different?
- kriro 11y ago
  The deal isn't with the BND it's with the BfV which is for German interior issues only so spying outside of Germany is theoretically unlikely. [even though my guess would be that a similar deal with the BND is in place as well]
  - throwawayaway 11y ago
    Safe to assume deal is in place with both, yes.
nota_bene 11y ago
Realistically, we have to assume this, given the fact that this is the approach used by the "five eyes".

rocky1138 11y ago

Will we be seeing a movie made about this in 20 years as we did with "The Lives of Others" in 2006? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/

flurpitude 11y ago
No, in 20 years history will have been revised so that these events never took place.
- wahsd 11y ago
  The internet will have been cleansed under emergency order ◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎
  - mindcrime 11y ago
    Subject washd - Mention of emergency order ◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎ is forbidden unless expressly permitted by an exemption granted under clause P97/X2 of Commandment ◼︎◼︎◼︎◼︎. Your deviation has been noted and you are hereby commanded to appear at Re-education Camp #47 for a 2 hour Happiness and Gratitude Ritual.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - dogma1138 11y ago
      mindcrime you know the rules all electronic communication with the populi has to be presented in FOIA compliant encoding... █████████ ██████ ██ ██████ ███ █████████ ███████ ██████████████████ ███ █████████ ██████ ███████ ███████████ ██ ███████████ ████████ ██████ ████████ ███████████ ██ █████████████ ██████████████████. ███████ ██████████ ████ █████ ███████ ████ ████ ████ ███████ ████████ ██████████████ [CODE WORD REDACTED] ███ ██ ██ █████████ ████ ████████ ████████.
      - themartorana 11y ago