3 ms·

>But even then the odds against evolution producing such similar animals on different planets is astronomical. Convergent evolution? Birds, bats, and flying sq

>But even then the odds against evolution producing such similar animals on different planets is astronomical. Convergent evolution? Birds, bats, and flying squirrels; sharks, dolphins and penguins; snakes, worms and legless lizards; and so on.

timwiseman 17y ago
I think you have a point. My knowledge of evolution is very basic, but it does not seem too intuitively surprising that a relatively similar planets produce fairly similar life.
donw 17y ago
Plus, you've got a lot of similar selective pressures -- O2 atmosphere, around Earth gravity, etc. The only thing that I found odd was that nearly every species except the Pandora primates had two sets of eyes, and everything except for the Na'vi had six legs. But it's passable as a plot device, because a mainstream audience probably wouldn't buy into the story if the Na'vi weren't "human enough"
- timwiseman 17y ago
  everything except for the Na'vi had six legs. Legs, yes, but if you look at limbs many of the flying creatures had four.
- Nogwater 17y ago
  It also seemed like most of the other animals had their nostrils on in the shoulder area. (I need to watch it again to confirm.) Why not the Na'vi? Probably because if they looked too alien (four eyes, four arms, no noses), the audience would have a hard time empathizing and seeing them as people.
  - bitwize 17y ago
    Indeed. That is also why the "Fookin' Prawns" of District 9 had similar huge, yellowish, humanlike eyes: give them large compound insect eyes and they become a target of revulsion rather than empathy. Already pretty creepy looking if you ask me.
- billswift 17y ago
  I haven't seen the movie and don't intend to, but according to the reviewer, he gave it a plus because the planet DIDN'T have an oxygen atmosphere. Which I considered a negative, since any biologically-realistic alternative would be significant and would be particularly mentioned, and again according to the reviewer the movie didn't discuss what the gas was.
  - dasil003 17y ago
    In the corrections at the end it was noted that it does have an oxygen atmosphere, it's just that there's some toxic gas in there as well.
    - nvasilak 17y ago
      Good catch, and a good move by Cameron. Otherwise those giant fireballs from the human missiles wouldn't be very plausible.
fh 17y ago
I don't think so. Life on Earth is so diverse already. Your best examples are animals that are close relatives already (birds and bats aren't all that far apart in evolutionary terms, and their common reptilian ancestors already had by and large the same skeletal structure). Also, aerodynamics seem dictate most of the body shape. Butterflies on the other hand solve the problem of flight in a very different way. The movement of worms and snakes doesn't look very similar at all, and the same is true for fish and jellyfish. Really, the Na'vi are more similar to humans than humans look to most other species on Earth. You can't make a convergent evolution argument here unless you believe that intelligence somehow requires upright walking and a human-like face, down to the specifics of what facial expressions mean. I consider this highly implausible, even if it makes for a good movie.
Vivtek 17y ago
I like the less obvious explanation: Eywah (the world mind) is the sentient species on the planet - about three or four generations ago, when Eywah realized humans were on their way, and having watched our television all along, she took some of those blue lemurs, and made herself some bait. Why do the Na'vi look so human? Nostrils in their heads instead of their chests? Only four limbs? Apes are 94% human - but the fully alien Na'vi are sexy. Why? Because they were made for us. Why do all the animals on the planet only kick the humans out at the end of the movie? Because Eywah now has what she wanted all along: one set of human scientist memories, and one fully-stocked base. Now she can start to trade on her own terms. While this movie has been knocked as an example of the What these People Need is a Honky trope, I think that's just the surface, the bait. Eywah gets human memes all too well. She knew some handsome young human would fall for her all-too-beautiful native women; it's in all our movies. So she made a nice, attractive native people who fly on dragons and let, well, nature take its course. She was probably confused as hell that we were all so short, though. That, and Star Trek had led her to believe all atmospheres are the same.

timwiseman 17y ago

I think you have a point. My knowledge of evolution is very basic, but it does not seem too intuitively surprising that a relatively similar planets produce fairly similar life.

donw 17y ago

Plus, you've got a lot of similar selective pressures -- O2 atmosphere, around Earth gravity, etc. The only thing that I found odd was that nearly every species except the Pandora primates had two sets of eyes, and everything except for the Na'vi had six legs. But it's passable as a plot device, because a mainstream audience probably wouldn't buy into the story if the Na'vi weren't "human enough"

timwiseman 17y ago
everything except for the Na'vi had six legs. Legs, yes, but if you look at limbs many of the flying creatures had four.
Nogwater 17y ago
It also seemed like most of the other animals had their nostrils on in the shoulder area. (I need to watch it again to confirm.) Why not the Na'vi? Probably because if they looked too alien (four eyes, four arms, no noses), the audience would have a hard time empathizing and seeing them as people.
- bitwize 17y ago
  Indeed. That is also why the "Fookin' Prawns" of District 9 had similar huge, yellowish, humanlike eyes: give them large compound insect eyes and they become a target of revulsion rather than empathy. Already pretty creepy looking if you ask me.
billswift 17y ago
I haven't seen the movie and don't intend to, but according to the reviewer, he gave it a plus because the planet DIDN'T have an oxygen atmosphere. Which I considered a negative, since any biologically-realistic alternative would be significant and would be particularly mentioned, and again according to the reviewer the movie didn't discuss what the gas was.
- dasil003 17y ago
  In the corrections at the end it was noted that it does have an oxygen atmosphere, it's just that there's some toxic gas in there as well.
  - nvasilak 17y ago
    Good catch, and a good move by Cameron. Otherwise those giant fireballs from the human missiles wouldn't be very plausible.

fh 17y ago

I don't think so. Life on Earth is so diverse already. Your best examples are animals that are close relatives already (birds and bats aren't all that far apart in evolutionary terms, and their common reptilian ancestors already had by and large the same skeletal structure). Also, aerodynamics seem dictate most of the body shape. Butterflies on the other hand solve the problem of flight in a very different way. The movement of worms and snakes doesn't look very similar at all, and the same is true for fish and jellyfish. Really, the Na'vi are more similar to humans than humans look to most other species on Earth. You can't make a convergent evolution argument here unless you believe that intelligence somehow requires upright walking and a human-like face, down to the specifics of what facial expressions mean. I consider this highly implausible, even if it makes for a good movie.

Vivtek 17y ago

I like the less obvious explanation: Eywah (the world mind) is the sentient species on the planet - about three or four generations ago, when Eywah realized humans were on their way, and having watched our television all along, she took some of those blue lemurs, and made herself some bait. Why do the Na'vi look so human? Nostrils in their heads instead of their chests? Only four limbs? Apes are 94% human - but the fully alien Na'vi are sexy. Why? Because they were made for us. Why do all the animals on the planet only kick the humans out at the end of the movie? Because Eywah now has what she wanted all along: one set of human scientist memories, and one fully-stocked base. Now she can start to trade on her own terms. While this movie has been knocked as an example of the What these People Need is a Honky trope, I think that's just the surface, the bait. Eywah gets human memes all too well. She knew some handsome young human would fall for her all-too-beautiful native women; it's in all our movies. So she made a nice, attractive native people who fly on dragons and let, well, nature take its course. She was probably confused as hell that we were all so short, though. That, and Star Trek had led her to believe all atmospheres are the same.