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I like to think that their 'network' of knowledge helped them realize they don't need technology and the chaos that comes from it. Or perhaps they have already

by vyrotek 17y ago

I like to think that their 'network' of knowledge helped them realize they don't need technology and the chaos that comes from it. Or perhaps they have already been where we are and have moved past it realizing there's a better way to live. Edit - Hmm a downvote for an on topic opinion? Would it have been better had I said "Who cares about the details its a freaking movie and you nerds need to get over yourselves?" :)

donw 17y ago
That sounds a bit too much like the 'noble savage', and runs pretty counter-intuitive to the parallels we see back here on Earth. Sentience isn't an 'event'; it's not like some apes woke up one morning a few million years ago, and just somehow knew to make spears and hunt. It happens slowly, starting with the use of naturally occurring tools, like chimpanzees do with sticks, or certain octopi do with coconut shells. Some birds use rocks as tools. Tool use evolves up from there, but if we look at our own species as an example, it probably doesn't ever really stop. The Na'vi are probably more like echoes of human beings at an earlier point in our evolution, with the added property of having an intrinsic physical link to the environment around them. If the ecosystem ties directly into your CNS, you're going to think real hard before engaging in widespread destructive behavior, because you know first-hand how painful the damage is. So things like mining, which gave humans metal, would take the Na'vi longer, because they'd want to find a way to do it that won't cause them a ton of pain. But they'd get there, and since Cameron is talking about sequels, the next installment may very likely show how contact with humans has pushed the Na'vi on to a more rapid path of technological development. And your post really doesn't deserve to be downvoted, so it got a +1 from me. Come on, we're discussing the science fiction in a movie. :)
- vyrotek 17y ago
  We really could invent a million stories as to how the Na'vi got their 'usb ports'. I mean, without knowing their history they could have been so technologically advanced that they gave themselves and the creatures these things and then their society collapsed. I'm also sure I already read someone's theory about them having been created by a more advanced aliens. Ah, science fiction.
timwiseman 17y ago
Or perhaps they have already been where we are and have moved past it realizing there's a better way to live. This one does not seem to fit the story as portrayed. Lets put aside the fact that "a better way to live" is likely be highly subjective and assume that they choose to live in tune with nature despite the ability to develop advanced technology. As long as they remembered this fact, that they deliberated put aside technology, they would have behaved differently towards the humans. They wouldn't have needed the marine to show them how to blind the clearing machines, they would have already known. They surely would have at least debated pulling out the old tech when their soul tree was threatened even if they finally chose not to. And they likely would have approached the humans to try to teach them their ways and show them they were "better", or if they wanted to be isolated they would have had the knowledge to be more effective in driving the humans away which they didn't even seem to try to do until the humans attacked them. Of course you could assume they forgot, but that seems implausible. A technological civilization that choose to abandon their technology should have little problem making sure that the message of deliberately eschewing technology and why would be passed down. If they didn't their descendants would be likely to start the cycle all over again a few generations. Also, their soul tree would be likely to hold this knowledge if no other method was passed (as I mentioned in a different post, the limits of the trees information storage and transmission are never made explicit, but it seems very likely it would have that particilar piece...)
- skalpelis 17y ago
  Ever wonder why there's no concrete buildings after the Roman Empire and before 1756?
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    While you have an interesting point, it is an invalid analogy: After the fall of the Roman Empire that part of the world involuntarily fell into a dark age, that is very different from intentionally eschewing technology. And those societies did rediscover most of the lost knowledge and began progressing again. Presumably a society with advanced technology that did something as drastic as getting rid of all of it would have left behind reasons so that their ancestors would also avoid it, or at least be able to make an informed choice. It would not be hard to ensure that endured (barring a major catastrophe) for many generations. It could have taken the form of oral histories which can be preserved (at least in general intent, even if details change) for very long stretches, or maintaining writing even if it was restricted to their spiritual leader caste, or even one remaining piece of technology in the form of an extremely durable recording that speaks to them on set anniversaries. Giving up technology is very different to losing it as a society collapses into a dark age from a combination of corruption, war, and other factors. Also, the Roman Empire did not have anything to function as an ancestral memory. While it has been mentioned several times before that the limits of the Soul Trees function as an ancestral memory were left vague, it seems likely that something as fundamental as deliberately eschewing technology would show up at least as echoes of an aversion to technology.
blhack 17y ago
Or perhaps they have already been where we are and have moved past it realizing there's a better way to live. My trek knowlege is pretty poor, but I want to say this is the history of the Vulcan. They're extremely advanced technologically, but choose to live a simple life. Unlike the Na'vi, however, they don't shoot animals with neurotoxin-covered spears, growl at things that make them angry, or try to fight a war against people with guns using the aforementioned spears. The Vulcan are one of the most technologically advanced civilizations in The Federation. If the Na'vi were an advanced race that chose to live simply, dealing with the Humans wouldn't have been a problem for them.
- rbanffy 17y ago
  It's not certain technology evolves in the same direction everywhere. There were a million paths our civilization could have taken that would land us on very different societies than the one we are in now. It is one of the very few scenarios where a war between different civilizations would be interesting: one where the technologies are so different engagement is almost impossible and you simply can't tell which one is more advanced. I think Starship Troopers explored this idea very well: there were planets humans were not even aware they were bug colonies. All weapons are designed making certain assumptions about their target. If all assumptions are wrong, the weapon is very ineffective. You can't use a torpedo to sink a mountain. I didn't watch the movie, but from what I saw, I gather human technology can barely function there due to the magnetic fields of the gas giant and/or its moon. It's likely the technology evolved in such a place would be very, very different from ours.
- gnaritas 17y ago
  > The Vulcan are one of the most technologically advanced civilizations in The Federation. The Vulcans were one of the most technologically advanced civilizations in the Federation, but not any longer, you haven't been keeping up.
  - heresy 17y ago
    Correction, that's only in the parallel universe. :)
anigbrowl 17y ago
I read it as a different kind of technology; for example, with such abundant biomass, it would be more practical for Na'vi communities to grow the 'home trees' and build space for themselves by moving upward rather than outward, as we do with cities. On a more metaphorical level, the film seems to explore the contrasts of networked vs hierarchical approaches to social organization mumbles about information ecologies and development strategies
gaius 17y ago
In Neal Asher's Polity novels, the Atheter are an advanced, starfaring race that has given up their technology. They engineered for themselves suitable bodies, strong enough to deal with predators etc, made certain adjustments to the ecosystem of their homeworld, then transferred into them and live pre-technologically.

by vyrotek 17y ago

donw 17y ago

That sounds a bit too much like the 'noble savage', and runs pretty counter-intuitive to the parallels we see back here on Earth. Sentience isn't an 'event'; it's not like some apes woke up one morning a few million years ago, and just somehow knew to make spears and hunt. It happens slowly, starting with the use of naturally occurring tools, like chimpanzees do with sticks, or certain octopi do with coconut shells. Some birds use rocks as tools. Tool use evolves up from there, but if we look at our own species as an example, it probably doesn't ever really stop. The Na'vi are probably more like echoes of human beings at an earlier point in our evolution, with the added property of having an intrinsic physical link to the environment around them. If the ecosystem ties directly into your CNS, you're going to think real hard before engaging in widespread destructive behavior, because you know first-hand how painful the damage is. So things like mining, which gave humans metal, would take the Na'vi longer, because they'd want to find a way to do it that won't cause them a ton of pain. But they'd get there, and since Cameron is talking about sequels, the next installment may very likely show how contact with humans has pushed the Na'vi on to a more rapid path of technological development. And your post really doesn't deserve to be downvoted, so it got a +1 from me. Come on, we're discussing the science fiction in a movie. :)

vyrotek 17y ago
We really could invent a million stories as to how the Na'vi got their 'usb ports'. I mean, without knowing their history they could have been so technologically advanced that they gave themselves and the creatures these things and then their society collapsed. I'm also sure I already read someone's theory about them having been created by a more advanced aliens. Ah, science fiction.

timwiseman 17y ago

Or perhaps they have already been where we are and have moved past it realizing there's a better way to live. This one does not seem to fit the story as portrayed. Lets put aside the fact that "a better way to live" is likely be highly subjective and assume that they choose to live in tune with nature despite the ability to develop advanced technology. As long as they remembered this fact, that they deliberated put aside technology, they would have behaved differently towards the humans. They wouldn't have needed the marine to show them how to blind the clearing machines, they would have already known. They surely would have at least debated pulling out the old tech when their soul tree was threatened even if they finally chose not to. And they likely would have approached the humans to try to teach them their ways and show them they were "better", or if they wanted to be isolated they would have had the knowledge to be more effective in driving the humans away which they didn't even seem to try to do until the humans attacked them. Of course you could assume they forgot, but that seems implausible. A technological civilization that choose to abandon their technology should have little problem making sure that the message of deliberately eschewing technology and why would be passed down. If they didn't their descendants would be likely to start the cycle all over again a few generations. Also, their soul tree would be likely to hold this knowledge if no other method was passed (as I mentioned in a different post, the limits of the trees information storage and transmission are never made explicit, but it seems very likely it would have that particilar piece...)

skalpelis 17y ago
Ever wonder why there's no concrete buildings after the Roman Empire and before 1756?
- timwiseman 17y ago
  While you have an interesting point, it is an invalid analogy: After the fall of the Roman Empire that part of the world involuntarily fell into a dark age, that is very different from intentionally eschewing technology. And those societies did rediscover most of the lost knowledge and began progressing again. Presumably a society with advanced technology that did something as drastic as getting rid of all of it would have left behind reasons so that their ancestors would also avoid it, or at least be able to make an informed choice. It would not be hard to ensure that endured (barring a major catastrophe) for many generations. It could have taken the form of oral histories which can be preserved (at least in general intent, even if details change) for very long stretches, or maintaining writing even if it was restricted to their spiritual leader caste, or even one remaining piece of technology in the form of an extremely durable recording that speaks to them on set anniversaries. Giving up technology is very different to losing it as a society collapses into a dark age from a combination of corruption, war, and other factors. Also, the Roman Empire did not have anything to function as an ancestral memory. While it has been mentioned several times before that the limits of the Soul Trees function as an ancestral memory were left vague, it seems likely that something as fundamental as deliberately eschewing technology would show up at least as echoes of an aversion to technology.

blhack 17y ago

Or perhaps they have already been where we are and have moved past it realizing there's a better way to live. My trek knowlege is pretty poor, but I want to say this is the history of the Vulcan. They're extremely advanced technologically, but choose to live a simple life. Unlike the Na'vi, however, they don't shoot animals with neurotoxin-covered spears, growl at things that make them angry, or try to fight a war against people with guns using the aforementioned spears. The Vulcan are one of the most technologically advanced civilizations in The Federation. If the Na'vi were an advanced race that chose to live simply, dealing with the Humans wouldn't have been a problem for them.

rbanffy 17y ago
It's not certain technology evolves in the same direction everywhere. There were a million paths our civilization could have taken that would land us on very different societies than the one we are in now. It is one of the very few scenarios where a war between different civilizations would be interesting: one where the technologies are so different engagement is almost impossible and you simply can't tell which one is more advanced. I think Starship Troopers explored this idea very well: there were planets humans were not even aware they were bug colonies. All weapons are designed making certain assumptions about their target. If all assumptions are wrong, the weapon is very ineffective. You can't use a torpedo to sink a mountain. I didn't watch the movie, but from what I saw, I gather human technology can barely function there due to the magnetic fields of the gas giant and/or its moon. It's likely the technology evolved in such a place would be very, very different from ours.
gnaritas 17y ago
> The Vulcan are one of the most technologically advanced civilizations in The Federation. The Vulcans were one of the most technologically advanced civilizations in the Federation, but not any longer, you haven't been keeping up.
- heresy 17y ago
  Correction, that's only in the parallel universe. :)

anigbrowl 17y ago

I read it as a different kind of technology; for example, with such abundant biomass, it would be more practical for Na'vi communities to grow the 'home trees' and build space for themselves by moving upward rather than outward, as we do with cities. On a more metaphorical level, the film seems to explore the contrasts of networked vs hierarchical approaches to social organization mumbles about information ecologies and development strategies

gaius 17y ago

In Neal Asher's Polity novels, the Atheter are an advanced, starfaring race that has given up their technology. They engineered for themselves suitable bodies, strong enough to deal with predators etc, made certain adjustments to the ecosystem of their homeworld, then transferred into them and live pre-technologically.