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This is pretty horrendous--at the same time, I'm a little puzzled: if you are gone for almost half a year and you're in a leadership position, is it that surpri

This is pretty horrendous--at the same time, I'm a little puzzled: if you are gone for almost half a year and you're in a leadership position, is it that surprising the company will route around you? EDIT: I guess what I'm asking is: how do we square "hey, workers need to be able to take family leave for potentially long periods of time" with "this team needs a leader"? It's a tricky question, and the shittiest answer is "oh, well, you can work from home! XD".

RaSoJo 11y ago
Routing around would happen. But putting her on the Performance Improvement Plan was inhuman.
- sjg007 11y ago
  She probably would have won the lawsuit had she sued.
  - WaltPurvis 11y ago
    On what grounds could she have sued?
littletimmy 11y ago
I guess one solution is that Amazon hires a separate leader, and then puts the other employee up in a separate position. Ultimately, the employer will have to take a bit of a hit if we want employees to have more secure lives.
potatolicious 11y ago
You need people who can cover in leadership positions - this happens all the time, how do you handle a leader going on a 3-week vacation to Bali? Obviously, longer term absences are qualitatively different, but again not insurmountable. More importantly though is that not only had someone else taken over her position permanently, but she was put on a PIP. A PIP is usually reserved for extremely poor performers who are on the razor's edge of termination, not an otherwise good performer who just returned from an extended absence. But of course I know multiple people at Amazon who had PIPs used against them politically - a PIP is an employment lawsuit mitigation strategy, even though it's a "Performance Improvement Plan" there is never an actual intention to follow through, it's always the precursor to firing. Her team being taken away from her because she went on maternity leave is extremely shitty. Her being put on a PIP immediately after returning is what takes this from "shitty" to "heinous".
- pc86 11y ago
  > there is never an actual intention to follow through, it's always the precursor to firing. No, it's not. I've had employees on PIPs that are here years later with no problems.
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    Individual contributors, sure. I've never seen someone in a leadership position who had their staff suddenly stripped away and put on a PIP for not delivering make it through without some "divine" intervention.
    - potatolicious 11y ago
      Not to mention PIPs-out-of-nowhere IMO always represent a decision that has already been made, and the PIP is just the follow-through. If this is genuinely a case where your manager has repeatedly told you about your poor performance, and is now going official with a PIP, then yeah, probably recoverable if you get your head screwed on right and do a great job. But a PIP that hits you out of left field unexpectedly is pretty much always a political maneuver, and represents a decision to fire you that has already been made.
- amyjess 11y ago
  > But of course I know multiple people at Amazon who had PIPs used against them politically - a PIP is an employment lawsuit mitigation strategy, even though it's a "Performance Improvement Plan" there is never an actual intention to follow through, it's always the precursor to firing. I understand that it's less about providing evidence to sink lawsuits (so many PIPs don't hold up to legal scrutiny: it actually opens less liability for a company to say "we're firing you because we don't like you" than it is for them to issue a PIP) as it is about demoralizing the employee and making them feel like terrible people, so they feel like them getting railroaded because of office politics is their fault, a) so they don't want to file a lawsuit and b) so vengeful managers can dig the knife in a little deeper and humiliate their victim. Honestly, the best thing to do when given a PIP is to immediately start sending your resume out and calling any contacts that might lead to a new job. If you have enough of a nest egg to afford to be unemployed while you're looking for your next job, go ahead and put your two weeks' notice in the day you get the PIP.
bonaldi 11y ago
It depends on whether the company's attitude is begrudging or not. If not, there are plenty of straightforward processes that can go in place. - First is, where possible, you get the replacement in on a defined temporary cover contract, and do a proper handover of duties to them. - Second, you offer the person on leave paid "Keep in Touch" days that allow the person to stay abreast of what's happening. - Thirdly, when they return you have a formal hand-back session that brings the person up to speed and makes it clear to all their contacts that they have returned to their responsibilities and taken back over their old position. I have seen this work correctly and smoothly multiple times, for both maternity and long-term sick leave. It doesn't involve pretending that they are still in post while they are out, but it involves the company being willing to pay more than lip service to supporting them during a period of long absence.
- angersock 11y ago
  a defined temporary cover contract Thanks for this! Could you elaborate on how this works? It's rather new to me.
  - bonaldi 11y ago
    It's essentially a contract that says you will be employed during the period of a given person's maternity leave, however long that may be. When they return to work, your contract expires. Here (UK) there are provisions in employment law that allow you to be dismissed because the person you're covering for has returned. Some details: http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/arranging-cover-maternity-leave/ http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/arranging-cover-maternity-l...
- krupan 11y ago
  Thank you for explaining this. When you work for a while for places that have no concept of what you just explained it's easy to believe there's just nothing you can do when an employee has to take an some extended time off.
kohanz 11y ago
Regardless of how the absence is handled, having the returning leader managing 1 person instead of the team they previously managed and then putting them on a performance improvement plan sounds a lot like constructive dismissal [0]. This is of course going off only one side of the story. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
iradik 11y ago
I think the shocker was they put her on a "performance improvement plan" -- that's basically probation.
supercanuck 11y ago
The solution is obvious: You hire men and people who don't get sick.
Spooky23 11y ago
It's a problem that is pretty easily solved. You appoint an interim leader. Look for someone on the team to step up a bit to assist the substitute. I had back surgery a decade ago that kept me out of the office for two months. I managed about 30 people at the time in 4-5 groups. My director and his admin took on the administrative stuff, and one of the team leads took over the day to day. I was able to do a call about every other week to go over project items. I came back, and things went back to normal, the positive benefit is that a couple of previously unrecognized employees got director-level recognition.
- ninv 11y ago
  Another solution is labor union.
cylinder 11y ago
I love how Americans think these are big bad problems that can't be solved. So myopic! Every other developed country has these policies and importantly they have the work culture to deal with it. People leave for a year on maternity and come back just fine, because people know that's how it's supposed to work.

RaSoJo 11y ago

Routing around would happen. But putting her on the Performance Improvement Plan was inhuman.

sjg007 11y ago
She probably would have won the lawsuit had she sued.
- WaltPurvis 11y ago
  On what grounds could she have sued?

littletimmy 11y ago

I guess one solution is that Amazon hires a separate leader, and then puts the other employee up in a separate position. Ultimately, the employer will have to take a bit of a hit if we want employees to have more secure lives.

potatolicious 11y ago

You need people who can cover in leadership positions - this happens all the time, how do you handle a leader going on a 3-week vacation to Bali? Obviously, longer term absences are qualitatively different, but again not insurmountable. More importantly though is that not only had someone else taken over her position permanently, but she was put on a PIP. A PIP is usually reserved for extremely poor performers who are on the razor's edge of termination, not an otherwise good performer who just returned from an extended absence. But of course I know multiple people at Amazon who had PIPs used against them politically - a PIP is an employment lawsuit mitigation strategy, even though it's a "Performance Improvement Plan" there is never an actual intention to follow through, it's always the precursor to firing. Her team being taken away from her because she went on maternity leave is extremely shitty. Her being put on a PIP immediately after returning is what takes this from "shitty" to "heinous".

pc86 11y ago
> there is never an actual intention to follow through, it's always the precursor to firing. No, it's not. I've had employees on PIPs that are here years later with no problems.
- Spooky23 11y ago
  Individual contributors, sure. I've never seen someone in a leadership position who had their staff suddenly stripped away and put on a PIP for not delivering make it through without some "divine" intervention.
  - potatolicious 11y ago
    Not to mention PIPs-out-of-nowhere IMO always represent a decision that has already been made, and the PIP is just the follow-through. If this is genuinely a case where your manager has repeatedly told you about your poor performance, and is now going official with a PIP, then yeah, probably recoverable if you get your head screwed on right and do a great job. But a PIP that hits you out of left field unexpectedly is pretty much always a political maneuver, and represents a decision to fire you that has already been made.
amyjess 11y ago
> But of course I know multiple people at Amazon who had PIPs used against them politically - a PIP is an employment lawsuit mitigation strategy, even though it's a "Performance Improvement Plan" there is never an actual intention to follow through, it's always the precursor to firing. I understand that it's less about providing evidence to sink lawsuits (so many PIPs don't hold up to legal scrutiny: it actually opens less liability for a company to say "we're firing you because we don't like you" than it is for them to issue a PIP) as it is about demoralizing the employee and making them feel like terrible people, so they feel like them getting railroaded because of office politics is their fault, a) so they don't want to file a lawsuit and b) so vengeful managers can dig the knife in a little deeper and humiliate their victim. Honestly, the best thing to do when given a PIP is to immediately start sending your resume out and calling any contacts that might lead to a new job. If you have enough of a nest egg to afford to be unemployed while you're looking for your next job, go ahead and put your two weeks' notice in the day you get the PIP.

bonaldi 11y ago

It depends on whether the company's attitude is begrudging or not. If not, there are plenty of straightforward processes that can go in place. - First is, where possible, you get the replacement in on a defined temporary cover contract, and do a proper handover of duties to them. - Second, you offer the person on leave paid "Keep in Touch" days that allow the person to stay abreast of what's happening. - Thirdly, when they return you have a formal hand-back session that brings the person up to speed and makes it clear to all their contacts that they have returned to their responsibilities and taken back over their old position. I have seen this work correctly and smoothly multiple times, for both maternity and long-term sick leave. It doesn't involve pretending that they are still in post while they are out, but it involves the company being willing to pay more than lip service to supporting them during a period of long absence.

angersock 11y ago
a defined temporary cover contract Thanks for this! Could you elaborate on how this works? It's rather new to me.
- bonaldi 11y ago
  It's essentially a contract that says you will be employed during the period of a given person's maternity leave, however long that may be. When they return to work, your contract expires. Here (UK) there are provisions in employment law that allow you to be dismissed because the person you're covering for has returned. Some details: http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/arranging-cover-maternity-leave/ http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/arranging-cover-maternity-l...
krupan 11y ago
Thank you for explaining this. When you work for a while for places that have no concept of what you just explained it's easy to believe there's just nothing you can do when an employee has to take an some extended time off.

kohanz 11y ago

Regardless of how the absence is handled, having the returning leader managing 1 person instead of the team they previously managed and then putting them on a performance improvement plan sounds a lot like constructive dismissal [0]. This is of course going off only one side of the story. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

iradik 11y ago

I think the shocker was they put her on a "performance improvement plan" -- that's basically probation.

supercanuck 11y ago

The solution is obvious: You hire men and people who don't get sick.

Spooky23 11y ago

It's a problem that is pretty easily solved. You appoint an interim leader. Look for someone on the team to step up a bit to assist the substitute. I had back surgery a decade ago that kept me out of the office for two months. I managed about 30 people at the time in 4-5 groups. My director and his admin took on the administrative stuff, and one of the team leads took over the day to day. I was able to do a call about every other week to go over project items. I came back, and things went back to normal, the positive benefit is that a couple of previously unrecognized employees got director-level recognition.

ninv 11y ago
Another solution is labor union.

cylinder 11y ago

I love how Americans think these are big bad problems that can't be solved. So myopic! Every other developed country has these policies and importantly they have the work culture to deal with it. People leave for a year on maternity and come back just fine, because people know that's how it's supposed to work.