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You don't. See my long comment on the actual post. I've tried and I've tried and I've finally given up. The only thing I haven't really tried is "plan stuff

by daxfohl 11y ago

You don't. See my long comment on the actual post. I've tried and I've tried and I've finally given up. The only thing I haven't really tried is "plan stuff so thoroughly in advance that you'll never have to refactor". Though this seems completely antithetical to Clojure's raison d' anyway, that I doubt I'll ever get there. I think it was on google groups somewhere but I can't find it offhand, but one of the early big contributors of prominent clojure libraries has since completely quit clojure specifically for that reason.

dkersten 11y ago
I think it was on google groups somewhere but I can't find it offhand, but one of the early big contributors of prominent clojure libraries has since completely quit clojure specifically for that reason. The only one I can think of, the complaint was the contribution/review process (I think it was Zach Tellman who contributed some work only to have Rich rewrite the entire thing out of the blue 6 months later). Unless you're thinking of a different case?
- daxfohl 11y ago
  That doesn't sound right; it was something specifically to do with the type system, someone who was directly talking with Ambrose in depth, someone whose libraries I'd used, and who purely switched to Haskell. And someone influential enough that (rightly or wrongly) led me to follow suit (based on just a gut feeling and appeal-to-authority, and far less true investigation).
  - dkersten 11y ago
    Ah, Ok, must be different. I didn't see the conversation you're referring to then. EDIT: switched to haskell? Was it https://github.com/bitemyapp https://github.com/bitemyapp ? I didn't see the conversation you're referring to, but the comments he's made about clojure more recently made me ignore him; they weren't very constructive :(
    - daxfohl 11y ago
      Ah, indeed. Here's the conversation that convinced me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7051611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7051611 Given I was already leaning in that direction, it wasn't hard to be convinced. Haskell was never really an option though because of libraries (and I'm not sold on Haskell anyway), so it led me to F# and Scala, both of which I "ideally" liked a lot. But lack of tooling and 3rd-party code, long compilation times, and obvious minority status on their respective VMs (e.g. nulls show up where the language wouldn't allow them) eventually drove me back to C# and Java. I don't like these languages quite as much, but all-told, when you throw in the ecosystem concerns, it seems like these are the languages that have the least friction against "just getting stuff done", and the ones I'm most productive in. For now at least.
      - dkersten 11y ago
        Ah. His "argument" there is very reasonable.

by daxfohl 11y ago

dkersten 11y ago

I think it was on google groups somewhere but I can't find it offhand, but one of the early big contributors of prominent clojure libraries has since completely quit clojure specifically for that reason. The only one I can think of, the complaint was the contribution/review process (I think it was Zach Tellman who contributed some work only to have Rich rewrite the entire thing out of the blue 6 months later). Unless you're thinking of a different case?

daxfohl 11y ago
That doesn't sound right; it was something specifically to do with the type system, someone who was directly talking with Ambrose in depth, someone whose libraries I'd used, and who purely switched to Haskell. And someone influential enough that (rightly or wrongly) led me to follow suit (based on just a gut feeling and appeal-to-authority, and far less true investigation).
- dkersten 11y ago
  Ah, Ok, must be different. I didn't see the conversation you're referring to then. EDIT: switched to haskell? Was it https://github.com/bitemyapp https://github.com/bitemyapp ? I didn't see the conversation you're referring to, but the comments he's made about clojure more recently made me ignore him; they weren't very constructive :(
  - daxfohl 11y ago
    Ah, indeed. Here's the conversation that convinced me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7051611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7051611 Given I was already leaning in that direction, it wasn't hard to be convinced. Haskell was never really an option though because of libraries (and I'm not sold on Haskell anyway), so it led me to F# and Scala, both of which I "ideally" liked a lot. But lack of tooling and 3rd-party code, long compilation times, and obvious minority status on their respective VMs (e.g. nulls show up where the language wouldn't allow them) eventually drove me back to C# and Java. I don't like these languages quite as much, but all-told, when you throw in the ecosystem concerns, it seems like these are the languages that have the least friction against "just getting stuff done", and the ones I'm most productive in. For now at least.
    - dkersten 11y ago
      Ah. His "argument" there is very reasonable.